Lambiel's spins

slutskayafan21 said:

Interestingly though the level 4 spins he does do tend to get all +2s on GOE which nobody else gets.

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(?) Which level four spins are you referring to? At both the Olympics he did three level threes and one level two.

Antman said:

You are the master of hyperbole but, honestly i didn't think that the difference between level 1 and level 4 spins was even as much as a couple of points let alone 8 or 9...anyone with a mroe mathematical brain (hint hint!!) care to work out the spread?

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I just hope they don't take 9 points off Weir's spins. At Worlds, his total for all four spin elements combined was 8.99.

I just love these numbers!

OK, now I will tackle Slutskayafan's thesis that the judges give Lambiel lower marks (compared to Lysacek, for instance), because they don't like him and because he skates for a country that lacks political clout in the ISU.

A closer analysis of Lysacek's spin scores at the Olympics, compared to Lambiels's, shows this:

Lysacek:

Base mark (two level 4s, two level 2s) = 12.0
Total Grade of Execution = 1.72

Lambiel

Base mark 10.4 (three level 3s, one level 1) = 10.4
Total Grade of Execution = 2.36.

So the judges (the ones who give the GOE) liked Lambiel just fine, it was the Technical Specialist (who calls the levels) who gave Lysacek the edge.

BTW, this also supports (however minimally, lol) the assertion that Lambiel's spins are still great (high GOE), but do not conform well to the requirements of the CoP (relatively low levels).

OK, I'm done for today.

MM. lol (whatever that means) Where did you get the information that Stephane was the best spinner in the world in 2004?

He did not place well in that competition. He was beaten by Plushenko, Joubert and Lindemann. He did beat Weir and Sandhu (and continued to beat them in 2005 and 2006 as well as Buttle, Lysacek and Takehashi).

I believe after 2004 Worlds, he had the knee surgery and his 3A became a problem but his solo quad or his quad in combo were super, and I noticed that when changing feet in spins, there is a problem with the left foot (think knee).

Stephane's mixtures of spinning began in 2002 or 2003 Euros. The following years everyone was doing mixtures of spinning. Whether or not his spinning in 2002,03 were the best in the world, is debatable. I would say they were innovative and we got more cannonballs after them with an arm raised as a cobra. Unfortunately, 2004 was a bad knee year for his skating.

This is a fun nitpick of Stephane who only two years ago, was not considered podium bound (except by me) - spinning his best or not.

For some people the rules of the scores are the essence of greatness. Michelle Kwan is still the greatest despite the lack of good scores. JMO.

Yes, I agree, he is not keeping up with the convoluted spin turns but he still outspins many in the artistic vein.

Regarding the camel. He has a lousy camel as does every male figure skater except Alexander Abt and Ilia Klimkin. Maybe Sandhu.

Joe

Joesitz said:

MM. lol (whatever that means) Where did you get the information that Stephane was the best spinner in the world in 2004?

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Just my opinion, Joe. If you disagree, who do you think was better?

This is a fun nitpick of Stephane who only two years ago, was not considered podium bound (except by me) - spinning his best or not.

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I seem to have a completely different recollection of 2004 Worlds than you do, Joe. I thought that Lambiel was super, and that everyone else did, too. (Dick Button, for instance.) It is my recollection that eveyone praised his spins especially and predicted great things for him.

Plushenko and Joubert outjumped him in that competition, and Lindemann put on a great show, too, although IIRC most observers thought Lambiel would have got bronze except for the "home country" factor.

But he outspun them all by a long shot, in my opinion.

(You were there in person, right? Maybe you were able to see some flaws in his technique that were not apparent on TV. On TV, his performance was outstanding, or so it seemed to me.)

Mathman said:

I am basing my opinion mostly on his performance in 2004 Worlds. I thought his spins were outstanding. If you disagree, who did you think was better?

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I would say that two of his spins in his 2004 Long Program were outstanding, better than anyone else's, but that one was a rudimentary camel spin and the other wasn't particularly excellent. Overall, Weir's and Sandhu's spins -- and I seem to remember Takahashi having very good spins, even if his LP was a mess in general -- were quite strong, even if any given spin wasn't as good as Lambiel's best.

Hockeyfan is correct. He and other male skaters from Europe have very poor camel spins. If we use the adjective 'best' than we have to include camel spins which Stephane does not do very well. With your JMO now appearing, the statement is more understandable.

However, without further ado, I will now say that Lambiel, IMO, is the worst spinner among the top contenders in men's figure skating. The scores show that, and I'm ready to base this conclusion on the scores. :agree:

Joe

Joe, I'm still waiting for you to answer the question that I have asked you three times now on this thread.

If you disagree so vehemently with my opinion that Stephane was the best spinner a couple of years ago, who do you think was better?

Do you have an answer, or is it just one of these "anyone but Lambiel" things?

2004 Dortmund, Lambiel was waiting to go under the knife. He was not at his best. Even his spins were not at their best. How badly that knee affects his spinning now is moot. It certainly affects his forward outside edge viz a viz his
3A. With two gorgeous quads I'm not going to quibble about a faulty 3A due to injury.

What he was doing in spinning was that he went where no other skater has ever gone. He took the sitsspin and with all those variations he caused other skaters (not necessarily the best spinners) to imitate him and, of course, they added on their own little variations. Taking an innovation is what figure skating is all about. Nobody owns anything after the lst year.

After Dortmund, CoP demanded those variations! Someone has to get the ball rolling on the technical. We have to credit Lambiel for creating the variations on the sitsspin as we do Boitano for holding one hand up while lutzing. How many have now followed Boitano by holding their hands up while jumping. Think Shizuka letting go her hand in a Y spiral. You will see a few more of those in the coming year. And for your Michelle, she brought back the Falling Leaf and the Charlotte spiral after years of disuse. Does anyone now not do those moves? and maybe better?

As for the best spinners in today's competitions, I would go for Klimkin but I do not use the adjective 'best'. BTW, Klimkin was in that Dortmund competition, and came second to Plushy in QR. Very sad he had to withdraw. Check out those forward outside camels in both directions next time you see him skate and realize that the camel position is second only to Butryskaya!!!

While I would like to see Stephane win another Worlds, I will not go bananas if he doesn't. Bottom line I'm all for the winner to be the most deserving. I am not a big fan of Kimmie but in Calgary she was the most deserving winner.

Joe

Thanks for all the detail, Joe. (I don't know why I am feeling so mellow today. )

hockeyfan228 said:

I would say that two of his spins in his 2004 Long Program were outstanding, better than anyone else's, but that one was a rudimentary camel spin and the other wasn't particularly excellent. Overall, Weir's and Sandhu's spins -- and I seem to remember Takahashi having very good spins, even if his LP was a mess in general -- were quite strong, even if any given spin wasn't as good as Lambiel's best.

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Weir's spins arent that great, they are definitely alot slower then Lambiel's, Buttle's, and Sandhu's. Sandhu often shortens his spins for no apparent reason.

Takahashi was not a good spinner at all until this year, his spins became alot stronger this season.

slutskayafan21 said:

Weir's spins arent that great, they are definitely alot slower then Lambiel's, Buttle's, and Sandhu's. Sandhu often shortens his spins for no apparent reason.

Takahashi was not a good spinner at all until this year, his spins became alot stronger this season.

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Weir had very solid positions in his spins, he held them well, and they were generally well-centered, even if they were slower than Lambiel's fastest. Lambiel's camel spin in Dortmund was not much faster than Weir's, and the quality of Weir's was more consistent in Germany than Lambiel's. However, two of Lambiel's were off-the-charts. My point was that in Dortmund, two of Lambiel's spins were excellent and two were no great shakes, with all of Weir's and most if not all of Sandhu's being better than Lambiel's mediocre ones.

I do remember Takahashi having interesting positions, even back then. But, oh dear, his LP in Dortmund was such a mess in general.

Joesitz said:

MM. lol (whatever that means) Where did you get the information that Stephane was the best spinner in the world in 2004?

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Joe can you read?!

Seriously though, MM spelled out very clearly that in 2004 it was his OPINION that Stephane was the best spinner in the world and that since CoP wasn't used there there were no actual ptotocls to back up this OPINION...he also asked you for your OPINION that if you didn't agree that Stephane was the best spinner, who in your OPINION was better.

Ant

Joesitz said:

This is a fun nitpick of Stephane who only two years ago, was not considered podium bound (except by me) - spinning his best or not.

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Joe alot of your posts seem to revel in your own greatness at predicting "how fabulous am i? I said stephane would win but no-one believed me", " i saw fou-fou skate when she was a feotus and i said she'd be great la la la"...what gives?! For the record Robin Cousins had been on the Lambiel badnwagon since europeans 2002 and was convinced if he got a triple axel and a quad he'd be headed straight for the top.

Joesitz said:

Regarding the camel. He has a lousy camel as does every male figure skater except Alexander Abt and Ilia Klimkin. Maybe Sandhu.
Joe

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Actually i think Pluschenko has a pretty good camel, as does Weir, but if the pattern (as it seems to be ) is the European men struggle with their camels i'd have to say that John Hamer (who hasn't amanged to qualify for the LP for a while) has a good camel spin as does Thomas Paulsen, both from the UK. Actaully i think Joubert and Dambier have pretty nice camels too.

Ant

Thank you for bringing all that to my attention. Beautiful or handsome camel spins are in the minds of the beholders. Lambiel's, for me is not either. Your opinions of others with nice camels spins are duly noted

As to bragging about my prowess for future stars, I think I do have a knack for that. So what?

Joe

Joesitz said:

Thank you for bringing all that to my attention. Beautiful or handsome camel spins are in the minds of the beholders. Lambiel's, for me is not either. Your opinions of others with nice camels spins are duly noted

As to bragging about my prowess for future stars, I think I do have a knack for that. So what?

Joe

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Just that on occassion the only point of your posts seems to be self congratulatory and that, in and of itself, does not give your opinion any greater weight than that of any other poster.

Ant

Mathman said:

2006 Worlds

Buttle -- 11.70
Lambiel -- 11.22
Lysacek -- 10.92
Sandhu -- 10.16
Joubert -- 9.58
Weir -- 8.99

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Actually at the Worlds Lambiel totalled a 12.21 in spins for the long program, the highest of all the men.

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2006/WC06_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

3.71
2.64
2.37
3.50
---------
12.21

Thanks for the correction (12.22, actually, I think).

This is quite interesting. Just like in the Olympics, Lambiel scored well in GOEs, but the base marks were not the best.

Lambiel: Base 10.3, GOE 1.92

Buttle: Base 10.7, GOE 1.00.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how Stephane's grown or not grown, when the new season begins. I think every skater hits a bump in the road some season and then bounces back. In Stephane's case, he's hardly hit a rut. He'll get around the CoP, easy.

antmanb said:

Just that on occassion the only point of your posts seems to be self congratulatory and that, in and of itself, does not give your opinion any greater weight than that of any other poster.

Ant

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You read into my posts whatever you want. that's your privilege.

Joe