Is figure skating a women's sport?

Re: Is figure skating a women's sport?

I had to chuckle when I read about Elvis and karate chops. Could I picture Alexei, Plushy or Abt doing that on ice? Not in a million years.

Re: Is figure skating a women's sport?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Could I picture Alexei, Plushy or Abt doing that on ice? Not in a million years.[/quote]
Thank God!!!!!

Dee

Re: Is figure skating a women's sport?

<span style="colorurple;font-family:georgia;font-size:x-small;">In Ellyn's book, which I haven't finished, she talks briefly about Alexei's Broken Arrow program, and how that was meant to be "manly" in that he machine gunned the audience at the end. Or possibly it was the judges (certainly more worthy of being machine gunned ). Anyway, I only saw the program once, and I don't remember liking or disliking it, so I will let Dee and other Alexei fans comment on whether it was more or less "manly" than any of his other programs.

Laura </span>

Re: Is figure skating a women's sport?

Gosh, how did I get so far behind in responding to this thread. I will try to catch up by going back to the beginning, with Eltamina's first post:<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>OMG, this is serious stuff, so if we haven't read the book are we able to participate in an intelligent discussion?[/quote]Sure, but it's a fine book and I hope that you will want to read it. There are so many glossy picture books and fluffy autobiographies out there, and so I was quite interested to read about the sport from the point of view of serious scholarship.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What is "gazed-upon-ness?" Do you mean eye candy?[/quote]That's a good question. Gender sociologists seem to use this word as if the concept is sort of like "eye candy" but somehow vastly more profound and worthy of deliberation and discussion at scholarly conventions and at meetings of learned societies. I am not an expert, but I will try to say a little bit more below.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I hate to mention specific skaters, but I am going to. Kat Witt is a tough competitor, and on competitive ice I don't think she presented anything "submissive". Was Roz more of "submissive beauty"?[/quote]To answer that, let me say something more about the theory that Dr. K. examines in her book. <strong>Disclaimer: This is not my theory. It is not Dr. K's theory either. So don't blame us. This is the theory that Dr. K. holds up to critical analysis in her text.</strong>

The traditional sexist view of society is this: Men do things; women look pretty. School figures thus belong on the "masculine side" of the sport, because here we have men imposing their will on a natural substance (ice), in order to create a thing of beauty (the tracings). Free skating is "feminine" because the <strong>skater</strong> is the thing of beauty.

The classical paradigm for free skating is the slave girl displaying her body to please her (male) masters. Think Salome and Scheherazade. Of course, the slave girl is not without power: she can use her feminine wiles to get what she wants (high marks from the judges or applause from the audience, in the case of figure skaters) -- but note that there is no such phrase as "masculine wiles." Therefore, when a skater is performing, even if she is an aggressive athlete like Katarina Witt -- indeed, even in the case of a male performer -- he or she is nevertheless submitting himself or herself to the role performed traditionally by disempowered females. No matter how many quads or karate chops you do, you are still dancing for the pleasure of your masters.

This is the sense in which ice skating is a "female" sport, according to this theory.

Mathman (*ducks*)

Re: Is figure skating a women's sport?

I kinda think KW as an agressive feminine skater. Her Carmen is totally overblown to show her prowess in being sexy and yet agressive.

The difference between Carmen and Salome is that the former is a putain who goes after what she wants. The latter is a virgin whose sexual awakenings are not understood by the subject. IMO, Salome is the more challenging to interpret correctly.

Summer REading

I love fluffy biographies, and glossy picture books. Since this book is so highty recommended by everyone, I have included it in my to read list. That will be followed up with a request to the libraries to buy many copies. I haven't even started on the list from last summer, Charles Rosen's The Classical Style, and the Romantic generation. I am currently reading Rosen's Beethoven piano sonatas. I will eventually get there, and I really like Ellyn's contributions here at GS.

Here is a challenge for you:

www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obi...ct-details

You may earn 50 pounds of amazon uk certificate, if you are the first to write a review of Ellyn's book, (and if they choose your reveiw) I think all the GS thinkers, writers, philosophers, sociologists should try. BTW, if whoever wins this contest, please send me a plate of virtual dim sum.

Back to topic, I still think the lady figure skaters should challenge the hocky guys for a match for edge quality, speed, and collision. I bet the ladies will win.

Re: Summer Reading

I'm on it! The review, I mean. I already have my review written. But the guidelines say I must cut it down to 1000 words (preferably, to 500). How can I do that without sacrificing some of my brilliant insights? Bummer.

BTW, I see that the list price for the hardcover edition in Great Britain is $45.95 <em>pounds</em>. This works out to $72.92 US. (1 U.K. pound = 1.587 $ U.S.) EllynK is going to be rich.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Back to topic, I still think the lady figure skaters should challenge the hocky guys for a match for edge quality, speed, and <strong>collision</strong>. I bet the ladies will win.[/quote]So, who is on your all-time all-star ladies figure skating collision team? No, don't tell me. We don't want to start <em>that</em> up again, LOL.

Mathman

Re: Summer REading

Quote:
I still think the lady figure skaters should challenge the hocky guys for a match for edge quality, speed, and collision. I bet the ladies will win.

Me:
Edge quality is irrelevent in a comparison because hockey skates are totally different than figure skates. Speed comparisons are also apples and oranges; hockey players are carrying quite a bit of gear, and most of 'em outweigh figure skaters by quite a bit, yet these guys get mad speed in short bursts! Over the long haul, the ladies might kick their butts in speed. Remember that hockey players also rest after every 20 seconds to two minutes. Then there's collisions. Think Michelle Kwan would knock down Darien Hatcher or Darren McCarty if she charged 'em full bore? Sorry -- she'd be a bug on a windshield.

Bug on the windshield

Hmm...let's see now...Momentum is proportional to mass times the <em>square</em> of the velocity. Michelle weighs 105 pounds. Probably 107.5 this year, now that she's not so skinny as in 2001-2002. Darren McCarty is listed at 215. So Michelle would have to skate about 1.4 times as fast as McCarty to hold her own in a collision (the square root of two = 1.414...).

Therefore...If McCarty skates at 25 miles per hour, Michelle would have to go 35 to avoid being a bug. (She's still be a bug, but she wouldn't be pushed backward in an inelastic collision.)

I think I'll try it with some crash test dummies. I'm working on my life-sized Michelle dummy now. How does it look so far?

michellekwan.fateback.com...Figure.jpg

Mathman

Re: Bug on the windshield

MM,

I get a pink screen that says "Forbidden...". What kind of dummy are you making???


Piel

Re: Bug on the windshield

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In Ellyn's book, which I haven't finished, she talks briefly about Alexei's Broken Arrow program, and how <strong>that was meant to be "manly"</strong> in that he machine gunned the audience at the end. Or possibly it was the judges (certainly more worthy of being machine gunned[/quote]
Laura, Princess Leppard, It kind of surprises me that she would interpret this program to be "manly" based on the machine gunning of judges. I haven't seen this to be any more/less manly a program that Alexei has performed. I think Broken Arrow was just a little before its time. Normally, when Alexei comes out with a new program and it is based on a film, I get the film watch it which helps me understand the program better. I didn't with Broken Arrow. I think Ellen is basing her description of manly based on the movie theme of it being an action thriller, not Alexei's program.

Dee

Re: Bug on the windshield

We will never come to a conclusion on what is 'manly'. Was James Stewart less 'manly' than John Wayne? Of course not! Skaters have a piece of music to skate to and what they do with it is purely in what they are interpreting. Some are better than others.

Interpretations by Alexei are fine as is Todd.

Joe

Sequins

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I get a pink screen that says "Forbidden...". What kind of dummy are you making??? --Piel[/quote]Does this link work?

jodiverse.com/pixtures/ga...eum&id=acf

As you can see, I'm almost done except for the fingers. Michelle is coming tomorrow for her final sitting.

Well, since I couldn't make anyone mad by talking about the slave girl theory of figure skating, I'll say something more about sequins. One of the two questions on this thread was:

(b) What strategies are available to male skaters to counter this feminizing, hence devaluing, view of their sport.

Suggestions so far are, challenge the hockey guys to a race, emulate Elvis Stojko (or Gene Kelly), and machine gun the audience. What do you think of this one: dress like men?

By this I mean, it's not really sequins per se that's the problem, it's the "feminizing" of the male role. In the following four pictures, the man (Anton Sikharulidze) and the woman (Elena Berezhnaya) are dressed alike in matching flowy, silky costumes of the same pretty colors. OK, he has on pants (and what lovely shades of pale pastels they are!), but that's about it. I really can't decide who is prettier, Anton or Elena.

www.canoe.ca/SK8WithElvis...ulidze.jpg

www.silverbladetours.com/...teamr2.jpg

www.skatingsource.com/pho...santon.gif

www.ne.jp/asahi/acp/soram...a_2fs2.jpg

Compare that to the next set of pictures. Now that's more like it! Men are men and women are naked, just as God intended! The man (Victor Petrenko) is essentially dressed in street clothes, a few stray sequins notwithstanding. The lady (Michelle Kwan), on the other hand, is wearing as little as COI thinks they can get away with in a family show. You the <strong>man</strong>, Victor!!

heatherw.com/mk/pics/even...withvp.jpg

heatherw.com/mk/pics/even...skate4.jpg

Mathman

Re: Sequins

I say we "masculinize" the females by allowing pants then turn the men into pretty little slave boys. :smokin:

I think I could deal with a few almost naked pictures of Alexei, John Z or Peter T. Skating needs more pretty boys. :smokin:

Re: Sequins

Mathman,

Did you see the TV program that showed how Madame Toussaud's made Michelle?

Piel

Re: Sequins

Yes, I did. Pretty cool!

For mpal:

www.dianesrink.com/sarah/...petert.jpg

www.skatingsource.com/photos/lang1.gif

www.starsstripesandskates...t-mw13.jpg

heatherw.com/mk/pics/even.../peter.jpg

Mathman

Thanks for the lovely eye candy!

What a gorgeous man. {sigh}

Broken Arrow

Yeah, Alexei's Broken Arrow routine is definitely one of
his more masculine. The target on his costume with the
blood-dripping down...not to mention the wonderful
machine-gunning motion.

It's a fantastic routine, and one of his favorite, and it
bummed him out when the judges response to it
was consistently one of confusion and lukewarm comments,
thus...Tosca was born, which served him well at the time.
I wish he'd use Broken Arrow again, even a modified version
for an exhibition because the choreography is good
and the music GREAT. Plus, it's the one time he chose his
own music.

Re: Sequins

I gotta log on again and say thanks Mathman.
You seem to beat me to posting.

Anyways, I hope no one is offended by me saying skating is feminized. For one, to be feminine is not such a bad thing. Two, even though karate is not for everyone :lol: no one can deny it didn't work for Elvis...that is, putting aside personal preferences for all things karate. Three, we may very well see different styles even some avant garde only if the establishment allows it.

Me thinks, there is something like a "idea of skating" created by the power that be(those who decide what is skating...i.e. the choreographers, coaches and judges) and to some extend the fans as well. I don't have a definition but it is somewhat 'feminine'. Perhaps, the skating establishment should focus on WHAT skating IS -a sport for both men and women, where men do as they like (i.e. manly style or little or no sequins) rather than making them DO as the female do.

Like Mathman said, the key is not really the sequins per se, but the "feminization' of the male skater or mens skating.