What became of the triple-triple? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What became of the triple-triple?

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
I recall a Slutskaya interview just before Torino where she said she wasn't going to do a 3/3 in her FS. She hoped the judges would continue to prop up her PCS scores so that sh wouldn't need to do the 3/3. Arakawa may have either read the interview or heard about it from Tarasova.

Sasha was the leader after the SP and had been Irina's main competition (aside from Asada) since Irina's return to competition. Once Sasha blew her FS, Shizuka correctly gambled that Irina wouldn't feel any need to add a 3/3.

Actually Shizuka's coach , Morosov, knew Irina wasn't going to do a 3-3 combo which is why he advised her not to do one. A clean program from Arakawa, and with Arakawa having a huge advantage in the presentation department (both spins and spirals), would put huge pressure from Irina to hit. Honestly, I don't really get Irina. Her advantage is those jumps and she knocked out those 3-3s so easily at Worlds 2005. I don't understand who is advising her to play it safe and do 3-2s. She doesn't have the presentation to beat Shiz (or Sasha for that matter).
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Yeah but if Irina had skated great performance even without the 3/3 she probably would have won. Shizuka still took a risk probably by not doing a triple-triple combination.

There would have been a huge stink if that crappy program of Irina's was placed ahead of Shiz's with the same technical content. Shiz had really difficult spirals and better spins in addition to buttery smooth jumps. Plus she was skating to Puccini. I think the crowd would have lynched the judges had they gone with Irina.
 

chuckm

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Aug 31, 2003
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Remember, Irina has a very serious chronic illness. She can push herself just so far, and then there are problems. I think that by the time Torino came around this year, Irina was simply not capable of doing the 3/3s that she once had been able to do so easily. Just the stress of the Olympic season had already started to wear her down before she even got to Torino.

Also, Irina does not feel confident of her 3/3s when she is under pressure. She was able to rip off the 3/3s in the 2004-2005 GPs where both Sasha and Michelle were absent, Shizuka was off her game, and Irina had no real competition. She was able to do a 3/3 at CoR this season because her toughest opponent was Miki Ando. But there was no 3/3 at CoC where she faced Mao Asada for the first time, and no 3/3 at the GPF. It is not surprising at all that she had planned no 3/3 for Torino.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Why don't the ladies do triple-triples any more? Is there something about the CoP than subtly discourages them?

In the Olympic free skate, unless I missed something glancing at the protocols, only one lady tried a triple-triple. That was Elene Gedevanishvili. She got a negative GOE on the element, plus got 0 credit for her last jump for a Zayak violation (she did 2A+3T, 3Lz+3T and solo 3T), and finished 13th.

Meanwhile...Arakawa, no 3/3; Cohen, no 3/3; Slutskaya, no 3/3; Suguri, no 3/3; Rochette, no 3/3; Meissner, no 3/3; Hughes, no 3/3;...

Are we going backwards technically?

At Worlds, as far as I can see only one skater did a triple-triple. Meissner did two, and the judges went so crazy for her that they gave her PCSs seven points higher than her previous personal best.

What can we expect from the next wave? I don't think Mao Asada has a 3/3. Yu-Na Kim did 3F/3T at junior worlds. Who else is going to come out looking to "up the ante" (as they say)?

You never know. Had Kwan knew after the fact, she wouldn't jump herself out of the final game.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Not sure about the other skaters, but Mao Asada has a beautiful 3Lu-3Lo in her SP of last season. In the long though, all her combinations are in the end, and the combinations aren't toe-loops, they're loops. If she can up her TES points like that and still maintain good health, then more power to her I say.
But Mao has yet pass her grown spurt yet. Ppl saw them said her sister has lost all jumps because of she is under going her growing spurt.
 
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Jun 21, 2003

chuckm

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Aug 31, 2003
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Wow, that's fantastic. Thanks for posting it. Check it out, everyone!

The only problem is, if she puts a 3/3/3 in her program, that doesn't really help her as much as it should because of Zayak restrictions. You have to scale back some of your other jumping passes (like maybe do two double Axels) later in the program.


The last thing Carolina Kostner needs is to do two 2As. It's her worst jump!
 

Zuranthium

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
The last thing Carolina Kostner needs is to do two 2As. It's her worst jump!

Yes, well, we all must do things we don't want to at times.

A 3-3-3 could be a powerful tool for skaters. It allows them to do an extra double axle and that 3.3 points is a HUGE boost.

However, I think double axles should fall under the Zayak rule. Still, you could work the system by putting one of the Axels in combo. Let's pretend Shizuka really did that 3-3-3 and her program became thus:

3Lutz/2Loop
3Sal/3Toe/3Loop
3Flip
2Axel
3Lutz
3Loop
2Axel/2Toe

Huge amount of points there. Although for her particular program I would almost prefer just a regular 3-3 and then the usual 3Sal/2Toe/2Loop at the end because that jump combination is so much more impressive coming out of her gorgeous Ina Bauer and creates an amazing climax for the performance.
 
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Skye

On the Ice
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Mar 23, 2006
But Mao has yet pass her grown spurt yet. Ppl saw them said her sister has lost all jumps because of she is under going her growing spurt.

Actually, Mao (and Yu-na as well) has grown 4-5 inches last year, and it didn't seem to effect her jumps at all. Her 3Axel at the Japan Open was better than ever, and she's been looping all her way to the Grand Prix Final. (I believe her shortcoming at the Jr. Worlds was due to pressure of defending the title.) And her sister Mai was never known to be a "jumping bean" like Mao anyway.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
By the way Mathman do you think Arakawa's 2004 Worlds winning performance would have had the two 3/3s ratified had COP been used? I believe that day they were fully rotated, I would probably check on film sometime though. She would have had 2 jumps in the short program that year though downgraded to doubles if I recall correctly which would have killed her, not only her triple-triple combo, but her triple flip. Her triple flip was downgraded in the short program twice this year as well.

I'm going purely off (slightl unreliable!) memory here, but the the triple on the back of the lutz in the SP (was it a toe or a loop, i cn't remember) was definitely a half turn short) and i think the second half of the Lutz combo in the LP was also short on rotation. The 3/3 off the salchow i think looked clean though.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I'm going purely off (slightl unreliable!) memory here, but the the triple on the back of the lutz in the SP (was it a toe or a loop, i cn't remember) was definitely a half turn short) and i think the second half of the Lutz combo in the LP was also short on rotation. The 3/3 off the salchow i think looked clean though.Ant
My own personal thoughts on that was it all happened during the 6.0 system., and what did it matter whether it was cheated or not? The LP was part of the comparison look at skaters and Shiz's 3x3s looked impressive. I'm sure some judges saw cheats (if there were any) others didn't or didn't want to.

Now, if this competition were done in the CoP system, there would be a Caller to announce that the second jump of the triple was underrotated if that was what he saw. I don't think it would have changed the outcome. Shizuka had the roar of the crowd.

Joe
 

antmanb

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Joined
Feb 5, 2004
My own personal thoughts on that was it all happened during the 6.0 system., and what did it matter whether it was cheated or not? The LP was part of the comparison look at skaters and Shiz's 3x3s looked impressive. I'm sure some judges saw cheats (if there were any) others didn't or didn't want to.

Now, if this competition were done in the CoP system, there would be a Caller to announce that the second jump of the triple was underrotated if that was what he saw. I don't think it would have changed the outcome. Shizuka had the roar of the crowd.

Joe

I agree that underrotated or not, Shizuka was the worthy winner of the world title, ultimately, as you say, we don't know how the judges dealt with the underrotated jumps under 6.0 but the base mark for the two 3/3s in Shizuka's LP had her doing On paper) the most diffcult programme, jumpwise, of any skater. Under 6.0 the jumps were always were the emphasis was.

Ant
 
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Jun 21, 2003
I wish Michael Weiss would have had a chance to compete under CoP judging. All those two-footed quads would have counted (with only a -2 GOE) under the NJS.
 

chuckm

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Weiss DID compete under the CoP system. He skated at TEB last season, and at SA and NHK in the 2004-2005 season, and he even won bronze in the GPF in the 2003-2004 season. His problems were not only his two-foot quad, but also the 3A, which was often not a secure jump for him. His music selections and his wife's choreography didn't help him much, either.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
You never know. Had Kwan knew after the fact, she wouldn't jump herself out of the final game.

She had jumped herself out of the game long before the Olympics. If she has to get hip surgery (as it is rumored), she didn't sustain that injury through a few seasons of skating. Hip surgery is usually the result of years of wear and tear. Just doing 3-2s and lots of triples will break down a hip. There isn't something magical about a 3-3 combo that will automatically yield a hip injury. Midori (and Shizuka) have done lots of 3-3s and Midori even did 3 axels and attempted quads in practice (she broke her leg on a quad in the early 80's) and they have not injured their hips (at least that I know of).
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
I agree that underrotated or not, Shizuka was the worthy winner of the world title, ultimately, as you say, we don't know how the judges dealt with the underrotated jumps under 6.0 but the base mark for the two 3/3s in Shizuka's LP had her doing On paper) the most diffcult programme, jumpwise, of any skater. Under 6.0 the jumps were always were the emphasis was.

Ant

There would have been a huge stink if the caller didn't give the benefit of the doubt to Shiz if she had done a 3-3-3 combo. With no one attempting such a combo, Shiz would have gotten some leniency on her "underrotation". I don't think Shiz underrotates as much as lands on a really deep edge and she doesn't appear to first land on her toe pick like other skaters.
 

Zuranthium

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Speaking of her 3-3-3, does anyone have the video of the practice session where Shizuka did it? It was on Youtube but I can't find it anymore.
 

riverflows

Rinkside
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Jul 31, 2006
I believe her shortcoming at the Jr. Worlds was due to pressure of defending the title.

I thought it was just a lack of competitive edge. I do agree, though, her 3A at Japan Open (and both of them at the Japanese Nationals) was fully rotated and clean.

Regarding the 3-3: I think Sasha put it best when she said that you get more points if you just stay on your feet. Maybe the ladies who start out with a 3-2 decide not to add that extra rotation because it hasn't gotten to the point where a 3-3 is absolutely essential to win.
 
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