Jeff's Injury

antmanb · Oct 17, 2006

Joesitz said:
He's always been a special skater. Too bad he feels he has to get that dumb trick.

Joe

Trouble is - he doesn't have a choice, it not his call to decide whether he needs it or not - that is up to teh scoring system - if the scoring systems lauds a quadruple jump over any other element, spin, footwork or PCS then that is what the skaters have to do. If the scroing system took the overall jump score and divided it by 4 for a jump score and then had a system of timind the amount of time a skater spends doing field moves and transition moves and multiplied it by four you'd see a change in teh make up of the programs...

I'm actually quite liking that idea...

Actually having a field mvoes competition replace the short porgram is something i'd quite like to see. Oftan my favourite part of a competition is watching the skaters warm up with great flowing field moves and big airy single and double jumps.

Ant

Mathman · Oct 17, 2006

antmanb said:
Trouble is - he doesn't have a choice, it not his call to decide whether he needs it or not - that is up to the scoring system...

That is so true. The skater who feels that he can do without a quad and make up for it with a couple of marvelous triple Axels and some difficult triple-triple combos runs up against a big problem.

Let's say you do 3A+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3F+3Lo, 3A, 3S, 2A -- what are you going to do in your last two jumping passes?

But if you go 4T+3T, then take it relatively easy with 3A+2T, 3Lz+2T, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3A, 3Lz, 3S, 3Lo, 2A -- that's 59.4 points and you're on your way.

(Now substitute a quad Salchow for the 2A, throw in a couple of weak level one spins, and you've got the gold.)

Mafke · Oct 17, 2006

In a way, I think (for men) quads are the new figures, an esoteric skill that's not appreciated by most audiences and whose mastery does not ensure memorable free skating, but which the judges do expect skaters to master if they want that top (and sometimes any other) step on the podium.

The main differences are that I like figures (yes, I'm strange) and not many skaters ever injured themselves trying to master a back outside paragraph double three.

antmanb · Oct 17, 2006

Mafke said:
In a way, I think (for men) quads are the new figures, an esoteric skill that's not appreciated by most audiences and whose mastery does not ensure memorable free skating, but which the judges do expect skaters to master if they want that top (and sometimes any other) step on the podium.

The main differences are that I like figures (yes, I'm strange) and not many skaters ever injured themselves trying to master a back outside paragraph double three.

I'm not sure the bit i've made bold is necessarily true. I think most people recognise the difficulty of jumping in the air, rotating four times and landing, all on a skate blade. I think generally most people realise that it is a very athletic skill not many people can do and TV audiences know that they stand no chance of ever doing it. While figures actually are insanely difficult to do and master, i think viewing audiences wouldn't view them as an athletically challenging thing to do and that "anyone" can trace shapes in the ice, and would find it easy to disregard the true skill of figures.

I think in that regard that is why the quad is viewed as a good thing by many people, especially the bores who seem to need to "legitimise" figure skating as a "sport".

Ant

Mafke · Oct 17, 2006

antmanb said:
I'm not sure the bit i've made bold is necessarily true. I think most people recognise the difficulty of jumping in the air, rotating four times and landing, all on a skate blade. I think generally most people realise that it is a very athletic skill not many people can do and TV audiences know that they stand no chance of ever doing it.

What I meant by 'not necessarily appreciate' was that a big chunk of the audience won't be able to tell the difference between a quad and a triple and many more knowledgeable fans would rather that skaters work on other skills than getting a quad (which is more often written about by such fans as a necessary evil than a benchmark of good skating).
Heck, _I_ appreciate how difficult a quad is, I just don't enjoy watching them (as opposed to other jumps) and have noticed that there's more of a negative than positive correlation between 'consistently hits a quad' and 'has consistently interesting programs/skating'. Yes, consistent quads and interesting free skating can go together, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the norm.

mzheng · Oct 17, 2006

antmanb said:
I think most people recognise the difficulty of jumping in the air, rotating four times and landing, all on a skate blade. I think generally most people realise that it is a very athletic skill not many people can do and TV audiences know that they stand no chance of ever doing it.
Ant

I'm not sure if a casual fan watch from TV screen without commentator, can even distinquish it was a quad or triple. Or double vs. triple. Most ppl that I talked to who ever watch the FS were caught by it's beauty at first. Then late some may became fans.

chuckm · Oct 17, 2006

The reason why Jeff keeps including a jump he apparently is unable to land is simple: points. He nets 5 points for falling on a fully-rotated 4T, about the same he'd get for a decent 3L, and almost as much as he'd get for a flawed 3A.

Jeff is not a particularly good jumper. His success rate with the 3A is only about 50-60%, and sometimes he has problems with the 3Z as well. The 5 points for the quad fall has been his most reliable payoff!

hockeyfan228 · Oct 17, 2006

Mafke said:
The main differences are that I like figures (yes, I'm strange) and not many skaters ever injured themselves trying to master a back outside paragraph double three.

Wasn't it during figures practice that Carol Heiss' sister collided with her and speared her with her blade?

Mafke · Oct 17, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Wasn't it during figures practice that Carol Heiss' sister collided with her and speared her with her blade?

I don't know, but IIRC Dick Button was practicing figures when he fell and hit his head a few years ago.

Mathman · Oct 17, 2006

Actually, I think Mafke has an excellent point. When we see someone rotate a quad and then lurch and stagger around trying to hold the landing, or come to a complete stop which totally destroys the illusion of skating a program -- I think the first thing that flits into our minds is "sloppy skating" rather that "that looks hard."

On the other hand, this increases our appreciation all the more of those once-in-a-lifetime masters of the craft who (I am thinking more of the ladies now) can rip off secure 6 and 7 triple performances at will and make it look like they are floating on air, who channel the emotions of the music directly into the grateful hearts of the audience...

...and who, disguised as Clark Kent, fight a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the beauty of the sport of figure skating.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 17, 2006

What is the point of the music? Why not just have a jumping contest like the Divers do in their competitions.

The skater has the option to submit 10 jumps, 2 of which must be in combo, and scored with their base scores but only if they have good take offs and landings. The judges then rate them with GoEs and the highest score (as in Diving) wins the competition.

No need for anything else for the Men. A skater could win without a quad.

Joe

Jeff's Injury

antmanb

Mathman

Mafke

antmanb

Mafke

mzheng

chuckm

hockeyfan228

Mafke

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

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