Will any of these U.S junior ladies have an impact on senior nationals this year?

Mathman · Oct 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
MM - Who decides if the lutz turned into a flutz or for a better term, take off on the wrong edge? From what Ant said, I believe the Caller just says lutz and then the judges have to grade the jump. There will be different scores for that attempt. Trust me. All these things look great on paper but when reality comes into the picture, well.....

Why not let the Caller call out Wrong Take OFF and the deduction can be automatic.

I would have no objection to that, but I think it is a roll of the dice either way.

The judges might be right or wrong, and the caller might be right or wrong, too.

Like Lambiel's contested triple Axel. Many people feel that the caller was wrong and it would have been better to let each judge decide for himself what he saw.

antmanb · Oct 20, 2006

Mafke said:
Oh.... you're one of those unreasonable people who expect others to understand what you've read before commenting.

Yes i made a mistake i mentioned Sasha at the start of the post but my mind was still on Caroline Zhang...when i wrote "actually i was talking about Caroline" it was me trying to point out my mistake but i can see how it might have been otherwise read. Rather than being unreasonable it was just a simple mistake i made...but let's try not to hang me for it hey?

Mafke said:
Anyhoo, I'd say the funny picking technique and funky hip thing are symptoms of not being able to hold the edge while she's preparing to do something else.
Possibly she's also making the beginning skater mistake of thinking that the entrance (skate backwards and reach back and pick with your landing leg) defines the jump rather than the edge (take off on the back outside edge of your non-landing leg).
What little I've seen of Zhang on youtube is mighty impressive, better musicality and carriage than many seniors. OTOH Ia skater as young and with as much potential at that age makes me wistful. As you note, it's quite possible that once puberty hits she'll be effectively back at zero or thereabouts and may or may not get the jumps back. I wish she'd concentrate on the jumps she can do right now and not even think about the lutz until after puberty.

Sadly a symptom of the scoring system...and by god she's got it worked out - 30 points in front of her competition??! I think that Lutz will take a lot of work to unlearn that muscle memory.

I wonder what exercises a skater could do to get them used to holding that LBO edge while doing other things - i'm sure than all of the elite skaters can happily hold a LBO edge til their blule int eh face, i wonder what it is about the lutz that makes it all go wrong?

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 20, 2006

Mathman said:
I would have no objection to that, but I think it is a roll of the dice either way.

The judges might be right or wrong, and the caller might be right or wrong, too.

It seems then that this argument on wrong take off edges is unresolvable and the judgement resorts to subjectivity.

[QUOTE[Like Lambiel's contested triple Axel. Many people feel that the caller was wrong and it would have been better to let each judge decide for himself what he saw. [/QUOTE]

I think some of the judges thought it too, and they gave him high +s on the GoEs despite the fact that it was now an overrotated jump.

An astute Caller has a tough job. The expectation of Lambiel to have a faulty 3A because of his knee injury was quite possible and could be considered by a Caller if he did not see a perfect view of the landing. Those of us who sat on the side of the landing viewed the landing as perfect. That's not to say Lambiel is out of the woods on his 3A. He still has the knee problem and the adrenalin may not work again. Unfortunate, because we tend to brand skaters on their faults.

Joe

Mathman · Oct 20, 2006

Actually, Joe, the more I think about your suggestion the better I like it. The technical specialist calls "wrong edge," the judges then proceed to judge the jump on its merit.

The judges would be expected to factor in a big negative GOE if the approaching edge is wrong all the way, but could also give considerations to positive factors as well. Then on top of that there would be an additional one point deduction, like a fall deduction.

So a medium-bad Flutz might get a -2 GOE, plus a -1 wrong edge deduction, giving a total of 3 points for this 6 point jump.

Although I was the one who brought up the comparison, I think that calling a wrong edge is actually quite a bit easier than calling an underrotation. It is pretty hard to tell the difference between 89 degrees of rotation and 91. But in all except a few cases ("Flatzing") a Flutz is pretty easy to spot for an expert caller.

antmanb · Oct 20, 2006

Joesitz said:
It seems then that this argument on wrong take off edges is unresolvable and the judgement resorts to subjectivity.

I'm not sure its so much unresolvable as the fact is that humans are fallible..as long as they are fallible then no judging system will get it 100% right all of the time.

My objection to the caller and his team is that it is 3 (is that right? or is it four?) people making the call, though i believe in reality its one makes the call and theothers challenge if they so wish and might be swayed by what the caller says.

To my mind 12 or 14 people stand more chance of calling something right on a majority basis than 3 do, so for me lets move it all back to the judges - they know the rules for a downgrade and should eb perfectly capable of applying that rule.

Ant

Mathman · Oct 20, 2006

antmanb said:
To my mind 12 or 14 people stand more chance of calling something right on a majority basis than 3 do, so for me lets move it all back to the judges - they know the rules for a downgrade and should be perfectly capable of applying that rule.

But that would countermand the whole rationale of the CoP in the first place. Which is...

Judges are at best political pawns of their federations and at worst cheaters, liars and crooks.

Appointees of the ISU, on the other hand, are unbiased professionals, beholden only to Speedy himself. :biggrin:

passion · Oct 22, 2006

I have never watched Caroline Zhang skate. Is she as good as Mira Leung?

antmanb · Oct 24, 2006

passion said:
I have never watched Caroline Zhang skate. Is she as good as Mira Leung?

I've not seen Mira Leung recently but i would say that Caroline Zhang has a purer jumping technique - that scary head back and shoulders scrunched way that Mira jumps is not nice to watch. But Caroline has over Mira is her musical interpretation. Although some have said that Caroline has a tried and tested formula for her programs that she sticks to with soft musical and lyrical skating, it really does work and seems genuine and beuatiful to watch. Mira unfortunately seems to skate her music with no regard to it whatsoever. I can't remember what Mira's spins and spirals are like but i don't think there are many people who could outspin or spiral Caroline.

Ant

dancindiva03 · Oct 24, 2006

antmanb said:
I've not seen Mira Leung recently but i would say that Caroline Zhang has a purer jumping technique - that scary head back and shoulders scrunched way that Mira jumps is not nice to watch. But Caroline has over Mira is her musical interpretation. Although some have said that Caroline has a tried and tested formula for her programs that she sticks to with soft musical and lyrical skating, it really does work and seems genuine and beuatiful to watch. Mira unfortunately seems to skate her music with no regard to it whatsoever. I can't remember what Mira's spins and spirals are like but i don't think there are many people who could outspin or spiral Caroline.

Ant

Caroline has odd jump technique as well. Her take-offs look weird, the arms held too high and her in-air position looks too loose. And then there is that flutz...

chuckm · Oct 24, 2006

I understand that Cynthia Phaneuf competed at Sectionals and qualified for Canadian Nationals. If Cynthia can recapture her jumps to her 2004 level, Mira Leung may find herself eclipsed, as Cynthia always had better presentation skills than Mira.

Mira competes at Skate America starting this week. Let's see how she measures up against Kimmie Meissner, Sarah Meier and Emily Hughes, who all beat Mira at Torino and Worlds, and against a resurgent Miki Ando who shone at Campbell's. Then there are Katy Taylor (who beat Yukari Nakano at 4CC) and Mai Asada, who proved she belonged in top company at Campbell's.

antmanb · Oct 25, 2006

dancindiva03 said:
Caroline has odd jump technique as well. Her take-offs look weird, the arms held too high and her in-air position looks too loose. And then there is that flutz...

I aree with the Flutz weird technique but i don't think she's particularly loose in the air. She sometimes isn't as strong as she could be on the landings and doesn't check her landings as well as she could. Either way i woudl say theoverall effect of her jumps is much better than the way MIra jumps...though didn't she change coaches so maybe her jumpnig has been cleaned up?

Ant

Chrystia Mee · Oct 26, 2006

Caroline's jump takeoffs on the flip/lutz in general are a little scary to watch. I don't like the way she lifts her leg so high before she picks into the ice to jump. At some jumps it looks like it extends above her waist, but that my just be the camera angle. She does have beautiful positions though.

This year I'm watching Julianna and Ashley to see how they fare. Julianna really seems to be alive this year, which I was truthfully not expecting her to do so well, so I'm definitely curious if her confidence will carry over to Nats.

chuckm · Oct 26, 2006

Mira cuts a clutzy figure on the ice. Her jumps are abrupt with odd takeoffs and klunky landings, and her spirals and spins are meh. Caroline Zhang's jumps may not be technically correct, but her overall skating is a pleasure to watch. With Mira, you are taken aback by the whole picture, which is not a pretty one.

Will any of these U.S junior ladies have an impact on senior nationals this year?

Mathman

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

antmanb

Mathman

passion

antmanb

dancindiva03

Match Penalty

chuckm

antmanb

Chrystia Mee

chuckm

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