Qustion, Pairs

SeaniBu · Oct 28, 2006

I can't find an answer out there???

What is the name of the move in Pairs when the Lady is dropped from over head, swinging head first toward the ice - of course missing by inches -skates straight up continuing the swing back upward and then set on her blades?

I called this a Death Drop, and now have seen that a flying sit spin of the Axel or Flying camel verity have dually note I am wrong. So even thought that seems such a fitting name for the move - pivot via Man (in front) holding Lady in the swing with her had being as close to the ice as possible ...baa blaa. Trying to justify my assumption that was it's name.

Anyhoo, What is the name of this move? I hope I at the very least say"...ooh yah." But Maybe I have never heard it. ???

Mathman · Oct 28, 2006

I think it's called a "head-banger."

http://www.skate.org/b+e/b+e-headbanger.gif

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/pictures/kjohnsto/be_camp1.gif

ETA. Actually, this is a spin. If he just drops her on her head once, I think it's a "candle lift." (I mean, the dismount from the candle lift. ?)

julietvalcouer · Oct 28, 2006

Isn't it also illegal in Oly-eligible competition? The spin, I mean, not the lift.

Ladskater · Oct 28, 2006

It is called the head banger and very few pairs do this move. Brausseur and Eisler were famous for their breathtaking and daring moves - such as the head banger.

Here is a picture of Lloyd and Isabelle doing their famous move:

http://webwinds.www8.50megs.com/pairs/brasseur.htm

The top picture is the head banger. It is a dangerous move and is only used in professional shows and competitions.

bostonskater · Oct 28, 2006

I think you're referring to the "swoop" exit from a lift. Watson and Oppegard were the first pair I recall doing this move, and Meno and Sand eventually added it to their programs. It is legal although it looks very dangerous.

backspin · Oct 28, 2006

It's also called a bounce spin. It is illegal in eligible competition, but you used to see it quite a bit in professional competition. It always freeked me out! :eek:

JonnyCoop · Oct 28, 2006

Isn't a "head-banger" an actual spin going around and around with the swooping, tho? I think just the "swoop" itself is called something differently (perhaps even the "swoop"). Seems to me there is another name for it, but it's not coming to me, either.

heyang · Oct 28, 2006

The headbanger is where the guy holds the gal by both feet and swings her around in a spin - usually with up and down motion so that her hair usually ends up brushing the ice.

I think the initial question was about the move that I've associated with Meno & Sand. He has her in an over head lift. He holds onto one arm and she clutches her legs around his arm as he drops her head 1st toward the ice. Then she opens up to land on her skate blade as in a normal dismount from a lift. It's a very dramatic move, but not as dangerous as it looks. Sorry, I don't know what it's called.

SeaniBu · Oct 29, 2006

a clip

hold on still coming...

Sorry got sidetracked....

http://download.yousendit.com/9BB81C672F20D4DB

SeaniBu · Oct 29, 2006

heyang said:
The headbanger is where the guy holds the gal by both feet and swings her around in a spin - usually with up and down motion so that her hair usually ends up brushing the ice.

I think the initial question was about the move that I've associated with Meno & Sand. He has her in an over head lift. He holds onto one arm and she clutches her legs around his arm as he drops her head 1st toward the ice. Then she opens up to land on her skate blade as in a normal dismount from a lift. It's a very dramatic move, but not as dangerous as it looks. Sorry, I don't know what it's called.

:agree:

Lanie · Oct 29, 2006

I don't think it has any real name - it's a dismount.

c_e_ahlen · Oct 29, 2006

Abitol and Bernadis does it too.
Here's a link
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i295/ceahlen/pod39.jpg
It's breathtaking

SeaniBu · Oct 29, 2006

Lanie said:
I don't think it has any real name - it's a dismount.

I never thought about it that way, it is a dismount :agree: It might not have a name? Thanks Lanie. And MM I needed to go back and re-read posts because you edited yours and I think now after reading it might just be a dismount from the candle lift. Not that there is anything wrong with that - having to go re-read. I just need to be more on my toes. Besides I do it all the time too.

I was a little misleading in the the second paragraph of my first post so I can see why some thought I was talking about the Head Banger (which I also did not know had that name either).

Often I get in a discussion with one friend over and over about why they don't allow the back flip / back Summersault, type moves in comp. I do have to wonder if it is not allowed in comp, why is it aloud at all? Not a very p'lexing question, but sometimes I do wonder....

SeaniBu · Oct 29, 2006

c_e_ahlen said:
Abitol and Bernadis does it too.
Here's a link
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i295/ceahlen/pod39.jpg
It's breathtaking

I really like that move for the wow factor for sure - I couldn't breath when Maria Petrova and Aleksei Tikhonov did it in a 05 Exsb, :bow:

Mathman · Oct 29, 2006

SeaniBu said:
Often I get in a discussion with one friend over and over about why they don't allow the back flip / back Summersault, type moves in comp. I do have to wonder if it is not allowed in comp, why is it allowed at all? Not a very p'lexing question, but sometimes I do wonder....

I think the reason that moves like this are not allowed in competition is because they are not really skating moves. That is, they do not involve anything going on between the edges of your skates and the ice (there is also the danger factor, considering that children will be attempting these same tricks.)

Another disallowed move is the Detroiter. This looks cool until your look at the man's feet and realize that he is not skating at all.

http://www.skate.org/h+l/h+l-detroiter.gif

BTW, the Detroiter was named after this prop-driven airplane:

http://www.air-and-space.com/20010825 Camarillo/1 22 Stinson SM-8M Detroiter NC416Y left side l.jpg

The reason that such crowd-pleasing tricks are not disallowed in pro-type exhibitions is, who is going to do the disallowing? What would be the penalty, a -2.00 deduction on their next competition?

SeaniBu · Oct 29, 2006

Mathman said:
I think the reason that moves like this are not allowed in competition is because they are not really skating moves. That is, they do not involve anything going on between the edges of your skates and the ice (there is also the danger factor, considering that children will be attempting these same tricks.)

Another disallowed move is the Detroiter. This looks cool until your look at the man's feet and realize that he is not skating at all.

http://www.skate.org/h+l/h+l-detroiter.gif

BTW, the Detroiter was named after this prop-driven airplane:

http://www.air-and-space.com/20010825 Camarillo/1 22 Stinson SM-8M Detroiter NC416Y left side l.jpg

The reason that such crowd-pleasing tricks are not disallowed in pro-type exhibitions is, who is going to do the disallowing? What would be the penalty, a -2.00 deduction on their next competition?

How perfectly put. Neat info, the guy that I go rounds with regarding this topic and others (FS related or not :laugh:

) is a pilot.

heyang · Oct 29, 2006

I think at one time they disallowed the backflip because they said it couldn't be landed on one foot. Surya Bonaly disproved that thought.

All jumps have both feet leaving the ice. The only difference between a backflip and a jump is that you take off on one foot for jumps and I don't think i've seen anyone do the backflip from one foot on ice.

The only real reason to disqualify it is that it's a blind jump and too risky.

Mathman · Oct 30, 2006

I still think that the backflip is frowned upon by stating purists as a circus trick (like barrel jumping).

The whole soul and raison d'etre of figure skating is the tracings that you make with your edges. Even though they don't contest school figures any more, still it's a pleasure the check out the ice after a performance. Ideally the approach to a jump should follow a continuous arc, then there's a gap while the skater is in the air, then a continuation of the same arc on the landing edge. In the approach to a jump, the edge is everything -- in fact, which edge you take off from is the defintion of the jump.

For a backflip you start by skating backward on two feet on the flat of your blade. That's not figure skating. Surya did learn how to land on one foot, but it was on the flat. (Got to give her props for her backflip / 3Salchow combo, though :rock:

)

Same with a spiral. If you do a spiral correctly (no change of edge), the tracing should be -- well, a perfect Archimedean spiral, hence the name. If you take up the whole rink and just keep on going, making smaller and smaller circles until you come to a stop in the middle of the ice (like Michelle does sometimes in her exhibition numbers, then she touches the ice and twirls back up into her next move :love:

) -- if you do it right the radius of curvature of subsequent sections should follow the pattern of the Fibonnacci numbers 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, etc. (each number is the sum of the previous two). Only backwards.

This produces the most pleasing of all possible shapes, so say people who study aesthetics. It is related to the idea of the "golden mean." Greek statues were made with these propostions in the body parts, for instance.

While you are doing this, if you can hold your upper body in a lovely Arabesque position, that's frosting on the cake. But the cake is the edge.

gio · Oct 30, 2006

Mathman, it's astonishing how much you know about figure skating, music, maths, physics and other subjects too.
Just how many things I learned with your posts.

Thanks!!! :bow:

SeaniBu · Oct 30, 2006

gio said:
Mathman, it's astonishing how much you know about figure skating, music, maths, physics and other subjects too.
Just how many things I learned with your posts.

Thanks!!!

I second that sentiment:agree: :bow:

Mathman said:
I still think that the backflip is frowned upon by stating purists as a circus trick (like barrel jumping).

The whole soul and raison d'etre of figure skating is the tracings that you make with your edges. Even though they don't contest school figures any more, still it's a pleasure the check out the ice after a performance. Ideally the approach to a jump should follow a continuous arc, then there's a gap while the skater is in the air, then a continuation of the same arc on the landing edge. In the approach to a jump, the edge is everything -- in fact, which edge you take off from is the defintion of the jump.

I believe this more then any, but do not discord the "too circus" and dangerous but feel the fact "it really isn't skating" as being the truest of defining reasons.

I stated this comment to the "friend" I go rounds with (mostly he and I just like to argue, wife usually comes into it and says, you are both saying the same thing :laugh:

) But the comment that it is not "really" skating received no rebuttal from him. The response was as though all the questions of FS were at that point validated and went on asking about the Skate America air times. Then for some reason we started comparing Motocross to Water Polo.??? Blaa blaa... but I do believe the aspects as mentioned in requiring a skater actually need to be showing skating skills regardless of the "show value" undeniably indicates that FS has high integrity and values - and regardless of "individuals" intent.

BTW, the black ice in the Halloween spec. was a great example of tracings left by the blade. I would really love to see a blue ice rink in "real" competition now.:yes:

Qustion, Pairs

SeaniBu

Mathman

julietvalcouer

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

bostonskater

backspin

JonnyCoop

heyang

SeaniBu

SeaniBu

Lanie

c_e_ahlen

SeaniBu

SeaniBu

Mathman

SeaniBu

heyang

Mathman

gio

SeaniBu

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