Witt and Thomas-between 86 and 88 2 of most overscored skaters ever?

slutskayafan21 · Nov 28, 2006

JonnyCoop said:
Secondly, let's look at their relative competition. Manley -- not good in figures until about '87 (And yes, we do have to take a bit of a leap here and assume that figures judging was more or less accurate). She was 3rd in the long program at the 86 Worlds, but was in 10th place at the time. Had much better position going into the long at the 87 Worlds, BUT the 1987 Worlds, in Ladies, was an INCREDIBLY well skated competition, IMHO, by just about the entire top 10 so her program kind of got lost in the shuffle...

I can only believe you did not see Manley's long program at the 87 Worlds. It was a complete meltdown. I have no doubt she could have atleast won silver behind Witt that year with a clean performance, and possably won if she skated anything like she did at the 88 Olympics. IIRC she only had to beat Witt in the free skate to win gold, Witt had a huge margin in marks between her and either Thomas or Kadavy so Manley and her triple lutz would have had no problem beating them with a strong performance.

gio · Nov 28, 2006

IMO, if there were no figures the podium should be 1.Ito; 2.Manley; 3.Witt. I just rewatched the SP of Ito. IMO she was amazing!!! She did a 2loop/3loop combo, a double flip with both her arms up, a 2axel with a Lutz entrance, beautiful footworked matched to the music with difficult toe work, and IMO also the style was good because that music really suited her.
As for Kat Witt, yes, IMO, she was a little bit overscored in 1988. And Debi Thomas also. But is also true that they were great skaters with original styles. Katarina was theatrical and Debi was dynamic. And about Debi, she did all of her jumps (except before the attempted 3loop maybe) with difficult entrances because she always did an element before a jump. She did a split jump or a stag jump right before a 3toe, a 3sal or 2axel.
Both Debi and Kat toes were very good.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 28, 2006

Debi Thomas even had a 5.8 for technical merit for her 2 triple long program. :rofl:

Yet some people believe she wasnt an overscored and held up skater.

I am not as sure on Witt as Jason is, but I do agree on Thomas atleast. Witt atleast had her charisma on ice and competitiveness and command of the ice to set her apart. Thomas had nothing except being the 2nd best on figures and not being too bad at some things, but mostly being the chosen annointed rival at Witt entitling her to outrageous overscoring.

dorispulaski · Nov 29, 2006

slutskayafan21, Did you ever see Debi skate a competitive performance live? As a Slutskaya fan, you would very likely have enjoyed it, as her strengths were very similar to Irina's-a personality that filled the ice and a very fast, dynamic style of skating.

She was one of those who was better live than on TV (as is Irina).

JonnyCoop · Nov 29, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
I can only believe you did not see Manley's long program at the 87 Worlds. It was a complete meltdown.

Well, it was almost 20 years ago and I don't have the videotape, so I can only go by what I remember. As I recall, all 6 in the final group skated well -- maybe not wow that was amazing well, but -- well -- well. :laugh:

Manley may have made a mistake or two or three, but I think if she'd had a "complete meltdown" I would have remembered it. And I also think she would have ended up finishing lower than 4th.

SeaniBu · Nov 29, 2006

DORISPULASKI said:
She was one of those who was better live than on TV (as is Irina).

:agree: Personally I think they all are - so far. I have only seen 4 or 5 performances of Debi's, and I can see what DORIS is talking about. :agree:

Slute21 - I don't think it is necessary to mock someone's opinion - as in laughing at them or their quote when it is not meant as a joke or is stating an opinion. They are entitle to theirs with respect, just as much as everyone else. I can see exception in joking context, but it is still never necessary to be "condescending" particularly with out recognition of difference in opinion.

temujin · Nov 29, 2006

JonnyCoop said:
Well, it was almost 20 years ago and I don't have the videotape, so I can only go by what I remember. As I recall, all 6 in the final group skated well -- maybe not wow that was amazing well, but -- well -- well. Manley may have made a mistake or two or three, but I think if she'd had a "complete meltdown" I would have remembered it. And I also think she would have ended up finishing lower than 4th.

My recollection of the 1987 World championships was that the ladies competition was very close going into the LP. I think all of the last 6 skaters had a chance to win the gold if they won the LP.

Manley had terrific practice sessions leading up to the night of the LP but in the actual LP she skated no where near her abilities (as she showed in Calgary in 1988). I think she ended up popping most of her jumps and only landed one (?) triple. Manley had to skate right after Cadavy who skated brilliantly and got a standing ovation. So did Thomas, and then Witt topped them all with the performance of her life as the last skater.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 29, 2006

JonnyCoop said:
Well, it was almost 20 years ago and I don't have the videotape, so I can only go by what I remember. As I recall, all 6 in the final group skated well -- maybe not wow that was amazing well, but -- well -- well. Manley may have made a mistake or two or three, but I think if she'd had a "complete meltdown" I would have remembered it. And I also think she would have ended up finishing lower than 4th.

She wasnt 4th in the free skating. She ended up 4th overall because she did well in the other programs. I will try to find a tape if I can but it was a meltdown pretty much.

Ivanova had an even worse meltdown and finished 5th overall so you can finish high overall with a meltdown quite easily. Granted she was leading overall going into the long.

dorispulaski · Nov 29, 2006

I remember it as a meltdown. I was there in Cincinnati, and it was a great competition in every way. I found a vid of it on fsvids, and while bad, Liz's performance did not seem as bad as I remembered.

I wonder whether it felt like such a meltdown at the time because it was a night when very few of the other skaters skated poorly? It made the contrast so very, very stark.

JonnyCoop · Nov 30, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
She wasnt 4th in the free skating. She ended up 4th overall because she did well in the other programs. I will try to find a tape if I can but it was a meltdown pretty much.

Ivanova had an even worse meltdown and finished 5th overall so you can finish high overall with a meltdown quite easily. Granted she was leading overall going into the long.

I MEANT 4th overall.

OK, if y'all say so re. the meltdown. I don't remember, it was 19 years ago. If this consisted of popping a lot of jumps, however, then it wouldn't have stood out for me because I'm not one of those skating fans who counts every jump rotation. To me, a meltdown would include a lot of falling down.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 30, 2006

Either way she did not do anywhere in the ballpark of what she is capable of, it was not even what you would call a respectable performance relative to what one hopes for of themselves. Even if a meltdown is strong worded it was at best "dissapointing" and had she risen to the occasion as she did in the 88 Olympics and 88 Worlds long programs she certainly could have won either a gold or silver medal, given that she was right there with Witt and Thomas going into the free skate, moreso then she was at the 88 Olympics and 88 Worlds. I am pretty certain her triple lutz would have carried her past Thomas- who two footed her hardest jump the triple loop-at the very least, especialy with Thomas not having an edge over Manley on the 2nd mark either.

Her jump difficulty alone would have ensured she did not get "lost in the shuffle" had she delievered despite the great night of skating.

Witt and Thomas-between 86 and 88 2 of most overscored skaters ever?

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