Anonymous Judging | Golden Skate

Anonymous Judging

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
I feel this will be ignored if not posted as a new thread.

What secret judging does do is make it harder to catch people when they cheat.

I hate to open myself up for more target practice, but - how? It is just a thought and I don't mean to sound like I am just causing waves, I am not. Please read in full for I know I have made an acceptable argument, but often have a hard time putting it in words for some here to understand. Sorry "up front."

So on how it makes it easier to cheat... I am in disagreement - and will humbly accept a point if I see it. - NO sarcasm intended at all. Just respectfully inquisitive.
The public did not catch the conspirators?
The skaters did not either?
They rose a "stink," but they still can, just not toward a particular judge. Just the score. Defamation of character is still slander whether it is the right thing to do or not. It might have something to do with slander laws. ????
It was the "committee," who is still able to see who is judging and can still hold them accountable. AND they don't have to release any information on who, just what, and they still get held accountable just not by the public or the skaters. That "side steps" slander laws. And slander is very sticky - the law does not seem right sometimes I agree.

The only thing I think that validates NOT having it be anonymous is if one were to assume that nothing would have been done if not for the public / skaters uproar. And on that same note, the public can still have contest with the scores that are placed, as well as the skaters. The only thing that has changed as far as I can see is you wouldn't know who you are contesting, just the score - which the "committee" will know exactly who it is. So they will still be as likely to get busted without the public having another reason to question FS or "destroy" someone for a mistake - however serious it maybe.

Public and skaters Can STILL uproar about score, just not individual Judge - which might also fall in the category of prejudice. Where as if we are screaming about the score unassociated with the judge, it is that much more likely a valid "gripe" rather than just saying "the Russians scored us low, its unfair." Now it is "the score here was low and that is unfair. Much more likely to believe someone who has a gripe without the possibility of prejudice. It is immediate validation that the score is the problem, not the judge themselves. The separation of blaming a person immediately validates a qualm by saying the action is in question, NOT the person.

It seems like I am in left field all by my lonesome, but have not had any reason to come in because there is still just one out. I don't want to make anyone mad, I am very open to learning. But I still feel like the decision was a good one for the whole of FS. The judges are still going to be held accountable, just that the public is not nearly as involved - that alone is a good thing IMO.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
I understand your point I just do care for it. I also understand how random judging come into effect. What would be the whole point of going throught the trouble to cheat when the score may not even count.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
I understand your point I just do care for it. I also understand how random judging come into effect. What would be the whole point of going throught the trouble to cheat when the score may not even count.

Thank you, that is one aspect fore sure.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
You just don't get it. When you have 3 Russian judges on a panel (one from Russia, one from Uzbekistan and one from Azerbaijan) Russia has the power to make deals with other judges because they have a loaded hand. All it takes is two or three other judges, and it is guaranteed that some of those 5 judges WILL be randomly selected and they can indeed affect the outcome of the competition.

Many of the judges still out there have cheated before and gotten away with it. There is no reason for them not to cheat again now that they can do it under the cover of secrecy. Be real.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
You have lost integrity. I hope you are not a judge. Are you CZ?:p Listen to some Aretha Franklin ...respect.

Your integrity maybe shot, but that doesn't mean everyone else's is too.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
You just don't get it. When you have 3 Russian judges on a panel (one from Russia, one from Uzbekistan and one from Azerbaijan) Russia has the power to make deals with other judges because they have a loaded hand. All it takes is two or three other judges, and it is guaranteed that some of those 5 judges WILL be randomly selected and they can indeed affect the outcome of the competition.

Many of the judges still out there have cheated before and gotten away with it. There is no reason for them not to cheat again now that they can do it under the cover of secrecy. Be real.

Then why are you a fan of FS. quit crying and give some respectful comments. No one needs your over opinionated BS. Help or leave.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Whoo nelly, what is up with the personal diggs against posters? People should be able to post their own opinions.
Is this the same poster who just told off chuckm? :scratch:

Maybe it is best for all of us to stop kicking each other out of threads or discussions and leave that kind of decision to our gentle mods.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
You have lost integrity. I hope you are not a judge. Are you CZ?:p Listen to some Aretha Franklin ...respect.

Your integrity maybe shot, but that doesn't mean everyone else's is too.

I would show respect but proven, tried convicted cheaters and toe tappers are still judging. I've forgottenthe names (and spellings of most) but Danilenko is one right? Another toe tapper beginning with "B" is still judging.
(Edited to add - it was Yuri Balkov who i was thinking of here.)

The reason people are up in arms are because they are still allowed to cheat. They were caught cheating because of open judging. Now that we have annonymous judging we cannot see it. Sicne the toe tappers camaras are not allowed behind the judges anymore. Is this an attemt to add integrity and respect to our sport? No its a means of cvoering up the truly rotten apples.

If you want a clean house the ISU should have thrown out all the bad apples, including the ones who ceated in SLC. Instead, the cheaters were banned for three years and allowed to judge again, yet eh whistle blowers who alerted the ISU and the world to cheating were banned for life....:scratch:

Ant
 
Last edited:

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
They rose a "stink," but they still can, just not toward a particular judge. Just the score. Defamation of character is still slander whether it is the right thing to do or not. It might have something to do with slander laws. ????
It was the "committee," who is still able to see who is judging and can still hold them accountable. AND they don't have to release any information on who, just what, and they still get held accountable just not by the public or the skaters. That "side steps" slander laws. And slander is very sticky - the law does not seem right sometimes I agree.


But the one thing you must remember is that the one fool proof defence to an accusation of slander is proof that your statement is true.

I can go on every board on the internet (though this would obviously be libel in the case of the written word) and have articles printed in every major news paper across the globe with the headline Figure skating judge Danilenko is a CORRUPT CHEATER who is happy to swing figure skating events for favours.

This is because it is true. To my mind those cheating judges have done it before, they did it all the time leading to when they got caught. Do i think the wrap on the knuckles of a couple of years suspension made them all better and true? No i don't. I look at protocols in events where they judge and i see a few lone -2s in GOEs for skater who have received almost uniform +1s from the rest of the judging panel for the same element and i wonder to myself - is it that porven cheater giving those marks and i can't find out if it is but i know that not a single judge has been suspended since annonymous judging, and that makes me nervous.

Ant
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Seanibu - If you believe in the sanctity of the judges then you should stand by your convictions. Please understand, it won't change mine.

Figure Skating should be judged as it is in Boxing. Two judges and a Referee. :)

Joe
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Is there such a limited number of judges that they need to bring back cheaters? Or is this the ISU trying to be diplomatic with other federattions? Given Three year suspensions doesn't encourage people to have faith in the sport.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Thanks, antman and enlight. I think you saw the point of my post, and seanibu did not. Seanibu, I think you are very naive if you think, like Candide, that all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.

I have looked at the protocols and studied the GOEs and PCS scores, and have been outraged at what I have found. It is obvious to me that the judges are forming alliances and they are working together to influence the outcome of competitions.

Check out the Junior Grand Prix protocols and you will see what I mean. In the JGP, there is no secret judging or random selection. Judge #1 on the protocol is the same Judge #1 in the panel of officials. You can see exactly how each judged placed a skater in relation to the other skaters, and for one skater, how each judge placed the skater in relation to how other judges placed them.

Judges blatantly score skaters from their own federation ahead of other skaters, even ones of obviously superior quality. Judges from the same region place the skaters in similar patterns.

The only thing the ISU dings judges for is not marking within the statistical range. That is the reason why the scores are so uniform, and which has caused criticism of CoP (e.g., if a skater gets a 6.25 in SS, then all the other scores are apt to be within 1.00 of that number, even though the skating skills are good, but transitions and interpretation are not good at all). But there doesn't seem to be any check at all for collusion (shared patters of judging, especially when it runs counter to the actual performances).

It is happening, and it is only going to get worse.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Is this the same poster who just told off chuckm? :scratch:

Maybe it is best for all of us to stop kicking each other out of threads or discussions and leave that kind of decision to our gentle mods.

Yep, no apologies, when someone is condescending to me I'll give it right back. And that is constantly what I say when others are doing it, so don't throw "name calling" into the mix, and I would have never been offended. But I can see by a latter post, the name calling is still going on - so ST.

I agree, but sometimes it is hard when it is you that is being treated poorly and without respect. I should have made it "anonymous" response eh?

And I still don't see how it MAKES IT EASIER. That makes no sense still. It is just as easy as before, just as easy as before. But the public damage is lessend. Case closed IMO. And I respect anyone who respected mine as just a difference of opinion.

eta, I think there is a big problem with having difference of opinion as well as personal impression. I did that when I first started, saying things like "you have got to be kidding me" or just being condescending in general. It is pointless and childish to resort to name calling or a belittling tone, and for some reason it was noticed once I responded to someone using that tone with me, I used the same tone yet I was once again the target. Whatever. Forest and the trees. Depends where you decide to focus I 'spose.

OAO
 
Last edited:

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Yep, no apologies, when someone is condescending to me I'll give it right back. And that is constantly what I say when others are doing it, so don't throw "name calling" into the mix, and I would have never been offended. But I can see by a latter post, the name calling is still going on - so ST.

I agree, but sometimes it is hard when it is you that is being treated poorly and without respect. I should have made it "anonymous" response eh?

And I still don't see how it MAKES IT EASIER. That makes no sense still. It is just as easy as before, just as easy as before. But the public damage is lessend. Case closed IMO. And I respect anyone who respected mine as just a difference of opinion.

eta, I think there is a big problem with having difference of opinion as well as personal impression. I did that when I first started, saying things like "you have got to be kidding me" or just being condescending in general. It is pointless and childish to resort to name calling or a belittling tone, and for some reason it was noticed once I responded to someone using that tone with me, I used the same tone yet I was once again the target. Whatever. Forest and the trees. Depends where you decide to focus I 'spose.

OAO


Hey Sean - i hope you didn't think my post was disrespectful to you? I think we do have a difference of opinion on this matter but this is a matter that i feel very strongly about since i feel this could be the final concrete slab around the neck of figure skating's future and finish it off.

Just because it is just as easy to cheat now as it was before does not make it ok that cheating can still happen now. In my opinion its accountability that is the most important part. Cheating has happened, cheating still happens and cheating will continue to happen. What is important is that those people are caught and held accountable. If the ISU does not have to account publicly for its mistakes and judges are not publicly held to scrutiny then how do ever know that the rules are being enforced.

If you look to SLC as an example - the ISU does not want to look into cheatin or corruption of its judges, it is too damn scared of what they will find. SLC was the tip of the iceberg and the "inquiry" was about as public as could be. And still despite the publicity the ISU chose not to investigate the other half of the allegation - that the vote in the pairs was for votes in teh dance event. Not one of the people who were fingered as being involved in the dance side was questioned or looked at. That was what went on when there was some form of public scrutiny, and still the right course of action was not taken

Keeping with the SLC example - in the judges review after the meeting - people there knew what had happened, they knew something stunk but nothing happened about it...nothing. Stapleford and the other judge (who's name escapes me) knew something was up and they grilled Legougne and then the story came out. The pressure from the media - who could see the truth in the story because of the open judging helped to get the story out. Do you think that the media would have run with the story if it was just Stapeford and the other judges story? I don't think so. The fact that you could point to each of the marks the judges gave and say that's who gave what made it easy to see that the story was true.

Annonymous judging has been brought in becaus the IOC told $peedy - if this ever happens again your sport is out of the Olympics. $peedy panicked and made annoymous judging the best way to cover up any corruption in the judges. Why do think the junior internationals don't have annonymous judging? The Juniors don't skate in the Olympics so you don't have to hide the corruption.

Ant
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Just because people don't agree with you, Seanibu, doesn't mean they are being "condescending".

The issue of cheating is very important to the sport of figure skating. Ice Dance has teetered on the edge of being thrown out of the Olympics because of cheating, and the history of cheating in that particular discipline (and Pairs as well) has a long and far from distinguished history.

As antman and enlight have pointed out, the judges punished (slapped on the wrist, really) for cheating are still judging. They cheated, and they got away with it and are still right there in the game. Now they can carry on as before, but even better, now they are safe from detection.

The real danger is that since SLC, the public has been turned off by figure skating because of the cheating. TV contracts have had their value severely lessened, and those same contracts are up for renewal next year. It may come to pass that in the future, there will be little figureskating shown on TV because the public has grown tired of what they see as a 'sport' that is fixed and the winners selected according to back-door deals and international politicking.

I have a feeling there will be another big scandal in the next Olympics, and that could be it for figure skating. The Olympics are in Canada, and Canada wants to garner its share of medals. But don't be surprised if the Vancouver Olympics turn out to be like all the other Olympics of the past few years, with the lion's share of the gold medals going to the same federation they have always gone to. Be prepared for the return of some of the 2006 OGM winners and for the unexpected rise of multiple teams in Pairs and Ice Dance (and I do mean teamS).

"Plus ca change, plus la meme chose" -- the more things change, the more they remain the same.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Sean - I agree with you that there appears to be less obvious cheating in figure skating not because of the CoP but because the judges names are not there. The judges now have the freedom to cheat without being exposed.

Joe
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Sean - I agree with you that there appears to be less obvious cheating in figure skating not because of the CoP but because the judges names are not there. The judges now have the freedom to cheat without being exposed.

Joe


:rofl: ... that would be funny if it wasn't true :no:
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
This entire post - as most that I try to post - is NOT writen with an agressive or snide tone at all. I can not write my vocal emotion so I ask that everyone please understand, I do not subscribe to "snotty" attitudes in 95% of my posts. Never do I mean anything snide unless it is directly presented as being such.

If I underline or bold face it is for emphasis only.

I HIGHLY respect your knowledge chuckm. I bow to your knowledge without a doubt. But the comments of...
You just don't get it.

Be real.
And....
.. you saw the point of my post, and seanibu did not. Seanibu, I think you are very naive
That to me is name calling or condescending. But again JMO.
And saying
... if you think, like Candide, that all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.
I would feel is closer to putting words in someones mouth, YET I don't think that it is exsactly, just the indication that I do or that is what I meant.
But here again that was my interpretation only and others might say it was not.

And I do see your point, and I don't think I could have a opposite opinion if I didn't see what others were saying. It is respected but I totally disagree that it makes it easier to "cheat." I think it lessens the incentive to do so and feel the committee that instigated it feels the same and I have faith that they are - in most accounts anyway ;) - smarter then I or most that I have any interaction with pertaining to FS.

On this one I agree with Speedy. I might regret it:laugh: , (and so far I kinda have by response:laugh: ) but for now I think I see the intent and due to the fact the "Speedy" crew has more experience and have had "round tables" over this issue, they have come up with the best solution they can. I think, I think that if nothing had changed it would mean less faith in this system in the public eye. Again JMO. Just standing by my convictions.

I may not be presenting the point or it is irrelevant to many here - I have had this discussion with others not of the skating world and most agree that it does not make it more likely to happen, just that the public is going to be less involved in knowing. Which might be a really good thing based on the fact opinions run ramped and often - but not always - convolute proper judgment.
Seanibu - If you believe in the sanctity of the judges then you should stand by your convictions. Please understand, it won't change mine.

Figure Skating should be judged as it is in Boxing. Two judges and a Referee. :)

Joe
Sean - I agree with you that there appears to be less obvious cheating in figure skating not because of the CoP but because the judges names are not there. The judges now have the freedom to cheat without being exposed.

Joe
Lord praise you Joe:agree: :clap: BTW, I think there are 3 judges in most boxing, at least the ones I have seen. I hope that was not taken negatively that I said that - I do not mean it that way at all, it doesn't really matter I 'spose, but I thought I would clarify. Some "fighting" matches can have 9 - 12 judges just like FS.

The thought to me, that the judges have some new freedom to cheat, I just don't see at all. Now I say this under the impression that they are not anonymous to the committee, so they still answer to them and still subject to review, just not by the public. If I am wrong and they are 100% anonymous to everyone involved I would change my tune. But they are still answering to someone, and the only people who would be able to do anything about it anyway, as far as I know.*shrugs* JMO and a few others I talked to, that I would conceder impartial.

Talking with ex- divers, gymnasts and cheerleaders, they feel it shouldn't make a difference and would stop the comments of, " oh that judge just likes you guys better," a comment made after the event buy .... well whatever.

One friend who is always surprising me with their insight - would never guess it sometimes - says he HATES the idea of anonymous Judging. Just from the standpoint the public can not get involved.

And on a side note "sorta" I like the idea of a 3 person Judging panel at first thought. But I haven't put too much thought into it, and am curious what more people might think about that?

Last on the "digges" issue from me. I am always sticking up for other posters who are getting railed when I see it, and did not feel like it was the right thing to do when I reciprocated in a negative fashion. But sometimes frustrations get the best of me when I feel - whether it was meant that way, it is how I felt - "under attack."
I apologize to those who had to see that negative side of my retaliation. I don't like to act that way. What with moving and "other" stress going on right now with parent surgery and such, I feel like I snapped a little and again apologize to the observing members.:bow:
 
Last edited:
Top