Michelle Kwan - Year in Review | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

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emiC

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

Frank was not a father to Michelle, he was her coach, and nicely paid for his work. Michelle has her own father, his name is Danny. Frank and Michelle had a business relationship bound by a contract. Michelle and Frank part ways at the conclusion of their contract

Frank and Michelle maintained their boundaries of coach / student, Frank comment on that many times, he is a coach not a parent . They never cross that boundary to father/ daughter. Michelle's father stayed up all night to fix her skates at worlds 2001, not Frank. Danny and Estella raised Michelle not Frank.

PS Where do you get this idea that Frank was a father to Michelle? Reading Christine Brennan?
 
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Kay118

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

>PS Where do you get this idea that Frank was a father to Michelle? Reading Christine Brennan?>

I'm sure Apach will answer this better but I don't think Apach meant Frank is a father for Michelle in the literal term. I was also raised in the Chinese culture. There is a famous saying in China: "Regard your teacher as your father even if he only teaches you for one day". That's how much respect you should have for your teachers. Frank taught Michelle for 10 years and that's probably Apach felt Frank was a father to Michelle.
 
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Kay118

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

>As for choreography and artistry, I just don't know the differences between her present and her past programs. Do you guys understand the concept of "using the whole body"? Do you guys spot the differences? Do you guys find her body movements are better? I don't and it's frustrating. Please share your thoughts. Thanks. >

Apach you are not alone. I didn't see the improvement in her body movements either because I felt she used her whole body very well even years ago. That is actually her strength compared to Irina whose arm and upper body movements sometimes don't coordinate with the rest of her body.

What was new last season from Michelle was the fire and joy that were missing from her for a few years. In addition, she was physically stronger which allowed her to devote much more energy into her presentation.

I had lost interest in Michelle's skating since '98. I didn't think she pushed herself technically or artistically. I disliked most of the music she skated to. Her custumes were inter-changeable from program to program. Lori's choreography became stale. When I watch "This time around" and "Wonderful World", I thought she should fire Lori on the spot. The programs were so boring. It was a pain to watch.

I wish she hooked up with Nikolai earlier. He has a different style from Lori. Lori is lyrical and sophisticated but Nikolai is intense and dynamic. The highlight of her program was the footwork. She put every bit of herself into the footwork section (that's probably what people meant by whole body movement) and I was moved to tears. She won me back as a fan.
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

Kay - You are absolutely right. Your style preference appears to be that of 'intense and dynamic'. I like that style too, although I prefer a more lyrical approach to figure skating. Unfortunately, I only get glimpses of lyrical skating, and the dynamic style, imo, has it's technical problems. Watch BeBe Liang in Nats, you will see the very dynamic and intense skater that she is. But will she splat?

As for MK. The East of Eden lyricism together with the dynamic Aranjez has for me, just made her a Prima Skater Assoluta.

Joe
 
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Kay118

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

Joe,

East of Eden is one of my all time favorites as well. When I said I disliked most of the music Michelle skated to after 98, I didn't include East of Eden, which was originally picked out in 94. I loved her 99 World Pro performance. She was lyrical but had so much tension and passion. Absolutely wonderful!

Yes I do enjoy intense and dynamic style. I like lyrical skaters too but only those who can demonstrate a range of emotions, eg. Lulu. I get tired of skaters who are super lyrical but only skate to "beautiful as a butterfly" kind of music, eg. Yuka Sato. I loved the joy in her skating, but it seems to be the only emotion she shows all these years. And it gets old for me.
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

Kay - We are in agreement. I see some lyrical skaters as beautifully lyrical but emotionally absent. What you call dynamic and intense I use the term bravura (it's used in ballet). The bravura skaters often are intent on their tricks and busy selling it to the audience (judges) rather than be emotionally involved in the music. But in both the lyrical and the bravura, there are the few who rise above the missing emotions, and Oh! the sport becomes an art, as well.

Joe
 
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ApacheApache

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
emiC
Frank was not a father to Michelle, he was her coach, and nicely paid for his work. Michelle has her own father, his name is Danny. Frank and Michelle had a business relationship bound by a contract. Michelle and Frank part ways at the conclusion of their contract

Frank and Michelle maintained their boundaries of coach / student, Frank comment on that many times, he is a coach not a parent . They never cross that boundary to father/ daughter. Michelle's father stayed up all night to fix her skates at worlds 2001, not Frank. Danny and Estella raised Michelle not Frank.

PS Where do you get this idea that Frank was a father to Michelle? Reading Christine Brennan?
[/quote]

As Kay118 has pointed out, I did mean "father" metaphorically and I sure think you thought so too in your response to my post. No, I hardly read Christine Brennan so I didn't get that idea from her. ;)

How do you know their relationship was purely contract-based? Aren't you speculating on your part too, you've suggested to people who speculate or psychoanalyze that they not do it and I understand why. However, you have to realize on every forum and every thread, there are speculations in one way or another, it's inevitable, so inevitable that even you do it without realising it.:)

Kay118, such a shame you have lost interest in her skating since 98. It's after 98 that her programs have been getting better and more mature artistically (as ar as her fans are concerned, I don't know much about artistry but I think I could sense the increasing maturity in her artistic expressions as the years went by, I mean I'm not totally emotionally void as far as artistry is concerned:lol: ).
 
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emiC

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>so inevitable that even you do it without realising it. [/quote]

There is no speculation. Frank has given workshops at PSA e.g. about a coach and a skater' s relationship is a business / professinal one, he is not (even metaphorically) the parent of a skater, a COACH.

It is also a standard practice that coaches and skaters work out contracts, even lower tier skaters. For the top level skaters, coaches receive a % of their endorsement money.
 
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ApacheApache

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
he is not (even metaphorically) the parent of a skater, a COACH.
[/quote]

You can say it with such conviction, has Michelle or Frank for that matter, specifically mentioned that? Just because it's a standard practice that coaches are supposed to coach and receive fees for their services doesn't necessarily mean the relationship is always just purely working relationship. There are many cases in which the students regard their coaches as their second parent especially for a working relationship that lasts as long as Michelle-Frank partnership did. So you actually speculate based on your understanding or rather assumption that a coach-student relationship is always just that. I, on the other hand speculate based on my observation. I think that Michelle regarded Frank as a "father" to her but Frank might probably just regarrd her as a precious protege. Either one of us is wrong but no matter, it's a speculation. If you have read or heard one of them mention they were purely a coach-student relationship, then I agree you aren't speculating.

Let's take this as a debate, no hard feelings, ok.;)
 
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emiC

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Either one of us is wrong but no matter, it's a speculation. If you have read or heard one of them mention they were purely a coach-student relationship, then I agree you aren't speculating[/quote]

thanks for proving my case. Frank applies his principles to all his students, he has given enough public workshop on this matter. :)

Apache, you may keep on specuclating if it is fun for you. BTW, this debate has been fun to a point, and this is my last post on this particular one, maybe we will debate more on another topic. I mean another topic on Michelle of course :)
 
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ApacheApache

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
EmiC
thanks for proving my case. Frank applies his principles to all his students, he has given enough public workshop on this matter.
[/quote]

But that still doesn't in anyway imply Michelle never regarded him as a father, it only implies he regarded Michelle as a student. It doesn't have to be 2-way. Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly in my last post in which I had meant to say, unless you have read or heard from either Michelle or Frank that Michelle never regarded him as a father, you are actually speculating that she regarded him as just a coach.

As it seems it will never end, this shall be my last post on this issue here too.:lol: I had brought it up because I just wanted you to understand everyone speculates in one way or another including you (that's how I see it although you insist you didn't in your posts here). Anyway, thanks for your time for your responses. ;)
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

I have to go along with emiC on this one. Setting "speculation" aside, just type "Michelle Kwan father coach" into your search engine and you will get <em>thousands</em> of hits. I didn't read all thousands, but I just read quite a bunch. Over and over and over, without qualification or quibble, Michelle and members of Michelle's family are quoted in the following vein:

Michelle: I’ve always learned through my parents, through my family, that skating is just a sport.

Danny Kwan: I took Karen and Michelle and said, hey, this is your only sister, the only brother you have for life. And someday, when I’m not here, or when your mom’s not here, there is someone you can count on. So, you have to learn how to love each other.

All references to Frank Carroll -- page after page of them --are strictly skating. Frank says, about Michelle leaving his tutalage and about Danny Kwan stepping in as advisor and cheerleader during the 2001-2002 season,

"You know, you see Michelle with her father and you wonder if this is what they really always wanted. At the end, maybe this is the way they wanted it to be. Danny was always there with her. They were very, very close. I'm not going to be a bitter old man about it. I've been in the business so, so long that there are no surprises here for me."

Here's a link, among hundreds, that makes it very clear that Michelle was never confused about the distinction between "loving" skating and <strong>loving</strong> her family.

heatherw.com/mk/transcript/greenspan.htm

That is not to deny that young people look up to their teachers and coaches as authority figures. But -- idle speculation and silly mental meanderings aside -- there is not a peep of evidence that Michelle was ever in confusion about the difference between a coach and a father.

Mathman
 
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ApacheApache

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Mathman:
That is not to deny that young people look up to their teachers and coaches as authority figures. But -- idle speculation and silly mental meanderings aside -- there is not a peep of evidence that Michelle was ever in confusion about the difference between a coach and a father.
[/quote]

I just needed to post again on this lest people misconstrue the real intent on my part regarding this issue. I think you too have misconstrued since you brought in the links and articles about Michelle and family and stuff, and I appreciate that.:)

The debate is not if Michelle had regarded Frank as her father. Side note: It is merely my idle speculation and I know perfectly well that I can be wrong. If I'm right I'm not excited.

The debate is all about speculation or psychoanalysis. EmiC has mentioned that she doesn't like speculation and she suggests people who do not do it. I respect her opinion, there's no right or wrong answer here. However having read her posts, I realise she has speculated on her part too, that's how I see it, I'm sorry EmiC if it's a wrong perception on my part but that's really how I see it. Hence the debate. I'm just trying to sound out to her that people speculate, everywhere, including herself without her realising it. That's all there is to it. It's not about Michelle and Frank and who's right about their relationship. Hope you and other posters understand. I appreciate you stepping in to help clarify things for me. :D
 
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emiC

Guest
psychoanalysis, fantasy, speculation, drawing conclusions

Apache,

In another thread I said, "It is an interesting topic for fun and speculation. BUT PLEASE leave the analysis of a skater's PSYCHE out." I was asking folks not to psychoanalze skaters.

I think we have different definitions for psychoanalysis, fantasy, speculation and drawing reasonable conclusions.

To me:

analyzing a skater's internal emotional conflicts, and motives etc is psychoanalysis, I believe you call that speculation.

To me when someone speculates without any evidence whateosever, that is fantasy. Sometimes fans psychoanalyze skaters base on pure fantasy. They do that all the time in literature/ fiction folders.

Some fans draw reasonable conclusions base on observation and evidence, e.g. Mathman drew a conclusion that Michelle has not regarded Frank as her "father".

Apache, at some we have to stop, I think we define <strong>speculation</strong> differently, this is absolutely my last post. ;) in this thread.
 
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SkateFan4Life

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

I just hope Michelle gets a solid triple/triple combination into her long program this season - assuming that she remains an eligible skater!
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

Hey Apache,
I've been away from the board for awhile and just now saw your posts on this thread. I'm sorry if some of my descriptions of Michelle's skating have been "driving you crazy":D --no psychoanalysis intended;) --but I really appreciate your questions. My time is rather limited right now but I will answer your questions as well as I can ASAP:)
Rgirl
 
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ApacheApache

Guest
Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

I agree EmiC, we have different opinions and it seems we can never agree with each other on this issue, I respect yours and hope you do mine too, I think you do. I never want to impose my thougths on anyone. Thanks for your responses.:)

Rgirl, great to hear from you!:D Take your own sweet time. I too can be away for a long period of time. The reason I've brought you into the picture is because your ideas of choreography really are driving me crazy. :lol: I don't how you are going to explain to me in layman terms the differences in her present and past body movement. Nevertheless, I appreciate your time for educating me. If it weren't for Michelle, I would never want to learn a thing or two about choreography or artistry. It's just not my cup of tea. I just want to enjoy and appreciate her programs on a higher level not just from a layman's perspective. I just need someone to fire ideas into my head, to provoke thoughts in me.:lol: One example is Taj mahal, initially I couldn't comprehend why Michelle fans gushed so much about the difficulty in that program. I started a thread on MKF to request someone help me appreciate Taj Mahal. Many came to my rescue and guess what, I have been watching that program with a totally different perspective since. Yes, I finally could appreciate that it was indeed a difficult program.

So no hurry, Rgirl, but if you really don't feel like talking about it, it's perfectly fine. Afterall, this is one layman who doesn't appreciate artistry generally. But I'm sure many GS readers would like you to share your thoughts. Thanks.:D
 

shanilia

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Re: Re: Michelle Kwan - Year in Review

SkateFan4Life said:
And how many of you think Michelle will retain her eligible status through the 2006 Winter Olympics? I fully expect to see her compete for one more try at an Olympic gold medal.
I agree with you.

I'm fully expecting Michelle Kwan to be at the 2006 Olympics. I'm also expecting her to win the gold medal and make all the "Third time's the charm," "Gold, silver, bronze she has it all!" headlines in newspapers worldwide.

Of al the skaters out there, Michelle's the only one who could make such dramatic news. That girl has a way of making history and BIG headlines. She's already made history in practically every major competition in figure skating; I wouldn't be surprised if she completed it with gold, silver, and bronze Olympic medals.

And it's pretty clear that Michelle shows no signs of slowing down. It's already 2003-2004 season, and 2006 is only 2 years away.
 
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