Which competitors let their head get to them too much?

Joesitz said:

Doesn't every lady do them in practice, and every male skater does quads in practice?

Joe

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It would surprise me if most of the top men and ladies don't land quads and triple axels respectively in practice. Competition ice is usually reserved for the jumps you can really truly do. Ex British champ Jenna McCorkell had quite a lot of success landing triple axels in practice. The main problem she had was landing more than two or three triples in major international championships. I would ahve thought that is the case for most of the skaters we see on the elite level.

Ant

While I would never admit it to my husband, I do think Michelle & Irina choked at the '02 Olympics... not because they had a fear of winning, but because they had a fear of losing that which they wanted more than anything... I mean, is there any other reason that the two best skaters of their generation don't have the OGM??

Both of these phenominal champs were the best most of us had ever seen live, their rivary was well-known & both had HUGE expectations for themselves. But when it counted, both faltered. Its very telling that both have expressed how they cried while standing on the Olympic rings.

However, I don't think its fair to call Sasha, Johnny or even Sandu chokers... they simply cannot get it done when it counts - ever. Choking happens during that one moment in time... not consistently.

I was also going to mention Leticia Hubert. I don't remember which Olympics it was, but she fell on nearly every jump, and not just little falls, but big splats where she was sprawled all over the ice. You wanted her to quit cuz it was so painful watching her. But she kept getting up and finished her program.

If anyone has ever competed, you understand how different it feels once you are on competition ice vs practice ice. It's very difficult to keep your head in the same place and your body often feels like it belongs to someone else. So I give all the credit in the world to the Brian Boitano's of the skating world that have consistently been able to hold it together when it counts. It's a lot more difficult than you realize.

Tonichelle said:

Paul Wylie also had the problem, but at the most important competition of his career he pulled it out.

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I think that Paul's problems may have been related to his studying at Harvard. He was a full time student during most of his senior career. The 92 Olympics came after he gradated with this undergrad degree. So, perhaps his studies impacted his training. He sure became consistent after finishing school.

Joesitz said:

There are many ways to tear Kwan down with ascerbic adjectives, but she is not fearful of an audience or of winning, especially winning. That's how the Kwan's became wealthy.

Joe

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considering I named my favorite skater as one that choked when under pressure I don't think you can use my saying Michelle choked as my way to tear her down.

I'm long past 'childish' issues that seem to keep being brought up. If I wanted to tear her down, I'd come out with it. Michelle did great things for competitive skating. I didn't like her style, and she as a person is not interesting to me. I don't need to be a fan to critique her.

Yes it was a strategy, but in skating being conservative with your arsenal rarely, if ever, works.

as for definition... just because you used it as a way to say Sasha was afraid of winning that has never been how I've seen the word to be used... normally choking is simply letting the pressure build up and you are so afraid of making a mistake that when something goes even a little askew the whole program is blown (ala Kurt in 92, or Angela Nikodinov after every blown program)... OR that you just freeze up and do what you can to stay perfect. (which is how I see Michelle's 98 performance. Maybe she wasn't the one who choked and her coach did and told her to reign it in)

heyang said:

I think that Paul's problems may have been related to his studying at Harvard. He was a full time student during most of his senior career. The 92 Olympics came after he gradated with this undergrad degree. So, perhaps his studies impacted his training. He sure became consistent after finishing school.

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yes but after 92 he went pro and wasn't competing as much and certainly didn't need all of the jumps he needed as an amatuer... I'm not knocking him or pro skating at all, but he excelled because of his artistry and all the other elements as a pro... and the lack of the huge pressure...

he said in his little 'testimony' here at the Anchorage Baptist Temple last year (and another interview on a Christian Radio Sport's program in 02) that he was always extremely nervous when he competed... but not so much after 92 and gave all credit to his faith in God... if that helps explain where I'm coming from at all. I am no way saying being religious makes you a headcase (far from it!) I'm just using what he said as a way to say that he did suffer from nerves and that little voice that told him he'd screw up.

Tonichelle said:

(which is how I see Michelle's 98 performance. Maybe she wasn't the one who choked and her coach did and told her to reign it in)

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I love this forum! Thanks Toni. So many Qs to the past an they get answered without asking. I never would have seen the 2 without these discussions that bring up the past. Thanks again!

I don't know what I answered, but ok... lol

I have wondered about the 98 MK for a long time now (the one that got me thinking and not just "looking") the idea - even if just an idea - is one I pondered. Was it valid, well... still don't know but at least I am not alone in wondering about the immediate effects the rest of the "team" has. It seems obvious at first but not so much if you concider it is a individual sport. Well how "individual" is it?

Not so much that you answered a Q, but that it feels to me valid now.

Tonichelle said:

if that helps explain where I'm coming from at all. I am no way saying being religious makes you a headcase (far from it!) I'm just using what he said as a way to say that he did suffer from nerves and that little voice that told him he'd screw up.

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I didn't watch Mike W all that much, but it seems from comments and my view - I would figure he would have "stood out more to me" in the past yet now he stands out... - I agree. God has done something for that man as I can see. But how much validity is there from a SeaniBu thought?? But Mike is now a personality / competitor that I do notice. And I was noticing others in the past just not him nor that much. Now he has something I at least would have remembered - like Kurt - that is only standing out now.... Must be something IMO

We were talking Paul Wylie... not Michael Weiss... I don't know if Michael is a Christian - though he did skate to one of the "Christian Anthems" of my generation at Ice Wars - Paul Wylie has been known as the "religious one" for years... in every autobiography that's how he's described. For me that is a HUGE boost!

Tonichelle said:

We were talking Paul Wylie... not Michael Weiss... I don't know if Michael is a Christian - though he did skate to one of the "Christian Anthems" of my generation at Ice Wars - Paul Wylie has been known as the "religious one" for years... in every autobiography that's how he's described. For me that is a HUGE boost!

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I know this comment doesn't exactly address the topic, but ...
Mike Weiss is Methodist, according to Christine Brennan in her first (?) skating book, Inside Edge. I wondered if he was possibly Jewish, since most of the Weisses (including some close family friends) I know are. One of his pro programs "Already There" (I think that's the title of the song) has references to Jesus in it.

The skating does not matter. It's the religious for the best, and the Nazi salute for the worst. The skating will be judged accordingly.

Joe

there are a lot of amazing skaters out there who I know nothing of their religious affiliation (or lack there of)

and Sonia Henie - haven't really seen any of her work outside of clips of her films shown on MASH lol


thanks for the tidbit of info on Mike... that makes more sense now!

Joesitz said:

The skating does not matter. It's the religious for the best, and the Nazi salute for the worst. The skating will be judged accordingly.

Joe

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????? It is the notion that it has an effect on the skater that shows in their personality on the ice, was the thought from me. Some might have an impact from things outside of their "direct" skating world and others might not. It goes with the "head getting to them" in the thread topic. But you might be saying that, I am not sure from the post.

Tonichelle said:

We were talking Paul Wylie... not Michael Weiss...

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Yah, so was I not supposed to bring anyone else up?

I didn't know for sure what or anything other than the obvious presents in music and attire, I just felt it might be having an impact in the way I see him and possibly others.

isk82 said:

I was also going to mention Leticia Hubert. I don't remember which Olympics it was, but she fell on nearly every jump, and not just little falls, but big splats where she was sprawled all over the ice. You wanted her to quit cuz it was so painful watching her. But she kept getting up and finished her program.

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If I recall correctly, that was the 92 Olympics. She wasn't the only lady splatting that day. Kristi was the cleanest with a wonky landing. Laeticia was a surprise in the top 6 since she was so young. I recall being able to see the bruises pop out on her skin as the LP progresses. She fell often and hard during that performance.

SeaniBu said:

Yah, so was I not supposed to bring anyone else up?

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the way you worded your post made it confusing for me. I thought you were referring to Paul and not really Michael...

the two are not comparable in my mind. While I enjoy watching both of them Paul holds a special place in my heart.