I'd rather skate naked than wear fur

I always thought that it was Paul's gig to do that. I believe the interview I remember, when he was still with Linda ( is there a better way to say that?) he was talking about "animal clothing use" - saying something that dictates necessity and the unnecessary is where we need to learn to draw the line.

Ladskater said:

Boy my hubby would love to see that! He always says ladies skating would be more interesting if they skated in the nude.

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It hasn't done that well in Vegas from something I head a while back, and there is at least one video floating around of exactly that. Tell him to google if you dare.

The Artist Formerly Known As.....

blue dog said:

Is this retaliation for Tarasova dumping her before Nagano? (she worked with TT prior to Nagano, but TT said she was going to concentrate on Ilia Kulik and Oksana Baiul/Yevgeny Platov)

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I take it you mean Oksana Grischuk.

As for Bonaly,"SACRE BLEU!ZAT SURYA.....SHE DOING NO SO GOOD!".I have no sympathy for anyone who associates with the loonies who put out that "The Holocaust On Your Plate" ad.

okay, I never liked Surya's attitude about things period, so this is no suprise.

dutchherder said:

As an exhibitor and breeder of rabbits for show, I would like to point out that many people "support" PETA without knowing what they really are. They are not an animal WELFARE organization; they are an animal RIGHTS organization. The difference? Animal welfare organizations fight for humane treatment of animals. Animal rights organizations advocate the same rights for animals as humans, which sounds okay until you think about it. They are against: eating animals or using them for clothing of any kind, using animal by-products (e.g. gelatin), using animals for any kind of testing, raising/breeding animals for show, zoos, crate-training dogs, fishing, or owning any kind of pet. Learn more from their site, if you're interested:

http://www.peta-online.org/campaigns/ar-uncompromisingstands.asp

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Maybe there are different levels of participation? The lady that is head of our local branch of PETA came to our Girl Scout day camp and showed the girls how to brush their dogs teeth and how to use a leash. The big emphasis of their speech was watching out for folks in unmarked vans who steal pets for animal testing. They were very nice....the PETA folks not the van driving petnabbers. They are all on the board of our local animal shelter......putting out the spay and newtor (sp) message. They also run ads in our Sunday paper of pets up for adoption. Maybe they are PETA Light (shrugs)?

Tinymavy15 said:

whoever wore fur to skate?

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Maxim Shabalin, in this year's free dance.

And all the whoopla over Surya skating nude, and she doesn't go through with it. Whatever.

I think the irony here is that SURYA will be wearing a bit of "fur" anyway if she chooses to skate naked....

~Z

oh Dear god do we NEED the image?? Did you HAVE to mention that

Piel said:

Maybe there are different levels of participation? The lady that is head of our local branch of PETA came to our Girl Scout day camp and showed the girls how to brush their dogs teeth and how to use a leash. The big emphasis of their speech was watching out for folks in unmarked vans who steal pets for animal testing. They were very nice....the PETA folks not the van driving petnabbers. They are all on the board of our local animal shelter......putting out the spay and newtor (sp) message. They also run ads in our Sunday paper of pets up for adoption. Maybe they are PETA Light (shrugs)?

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Well, unfortunately, the organization themselves calls those beliefs "uncompromising stands". To me, "uncompromising" means that no, there is no "PETA light". They do support caring for pets that already exist, but believe that the ultimate goal of spaying/neutering is that there will no longer be animals that are pets. As for watching out for folks in unmarked vans, perhaps the girls would be better served if the discussion was that they should watch out for "Girl Scout nabbers" instead of "pet nabbers"-- that's a more real and costly threat. I have no doubt that the PETA representatives were nice. People who hold extreme beliefs and who are recruiting almost always are until they are challenged. Again, I encourage you to visit their website and view their page about their "tactics" and their stand on the ALF (Animal Liberation Front), an organization that regularly burns down research facilities. PETA doesn't have a problem with that. They also protest the American Cancer Society, The March of Dimes, and the Muscular Dystrophy Association because they collect money for research to find cures for diseases. They call these groups "life taking charities". I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't want my name associated with a group that promotes these ideas. Sorry! Off my soapbox now!

Mathman said:

That's very interesting. It makes me wonder where the concept came from that humans have rights. Rights seem to be things that we make up and bestow upon ourselves (and in some cases, upon our friends).

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Thoughtful as always, Mathman. The eye at the center of many storms.

And for the record, I am supportive of PETA, though I don't go along with them on everything do they or posit

I like Surya - very nice as a person, down to earth.
But it's interesting to me that so many anti-fur people wear leather on their feet.....as in ice skates. When Johnny has made his pro-fur statements, even a bunch of his devoted fans took issue with him, yet.....do they not realize that EVERY single skater out there on the big stage is performing and competing with 'dead animal' leather skates attached to their feet? Always seemed a strange distinction: fur = bad, leather = acceptable.

Zanzibar said:

I like Surya - very nice as a person, down to earth.
But it's interesting to me that so many anti-fur people wear leather on their feet.....as in ice skates. When Johnny has made his pro-fur statements, even a bunch of his devoted fans took issue with him, yet.....do they not realize that EVERY single skater out there on the big stage is performing and competing with 'dead animal' leather skates attached to their feet? Always seemed a strange distinction: fur = bad, leather = acceptable.

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There is a difference between necessary and extravagance at somethings expense. Particularly when it is the single reason for harvesting an animal. Cows are used for a number of things in addition - Minks (try to get justified by oil, but what do we NEED their oil for?), BABY seals...etc....One reason.

As I was mention earlier, Paul McCartney has talked about this very ting - leather use for shoes and jackets.

I think we (along with our “best friends”) are barking up the wrong tree if we expect to be able to overlay our ethical systems with logical coherence. As Ralph Waldo Emerson famously put it, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

Is it “inconsistent” to deplore clubbing baby seals for their pelts, yet to be willing to skate in boots made of cowhide?

In the past we placed a sliding scale of values on different kind of pelts. A “redskin” fetched a greater bounty even than a beaver (40 pounds sterling in the case of an adult male Penobscot, 20 pounds for a female or a child under twelve).

http://www.aics.org/mascot/redskins.html

It’s tricky, this idea of right and wrong. Surya and all of us came into the world naked. All we can do as we muddle our way through the Long Program that the Big Choreographer has given us is to

pick ourselves up and

put one foot in front of the other.

Just my opinion.

It is an ethical minefield - necessity or not...how "necessary" is the use of leather for figure skates??

Honestly i can't say that i feel too strongly about the use of fur or leather. In Europe the use of fur has always been far more tolerated (and outwardly celebrated) compared to North America. I think the whole thing was a publicity stunt "Surya will skate naked" well she didn't - the russain ice dance ladeis skate with less on that that!

It gets PETA Publicity, its get Surya Publicity and everyone's happy...heck even we get to talk about it for a few pages so we're happy too

Ant

These arguments are "black and white" in a world of "color."

Mathman said:

Is it “inconsistent” to deplore clubbing baby seals for their pelts, yet to be willing to skate in boots made of cowhide?

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There is an inconsistency in saying there is consistency in the fact there are inconstancies.

This sounds like a Vegan's POV of a Vegetarian.

There is a huge difference between killing something for a not needed (the definition there is to obvious) for there is a better practical alternative to baby seal pelts. Also the fact the seals are wild and there is no compensation to procreate and balance - the extinction of an animal for one use that is now not as "warmth providing" as synthetics that "warm and protect" better than seal hide. Is greed a necessity? Is there a better alternative. Well Leather for one is already being used and resupplied to keep with demand, It might not feel as good or look as good, but wears longer and provides warmth do we have to look and feel good via what we wear OR what we are?

antmanb said:

It is an ethical minefield - necessity or not...how "necessary" is the use of leather for figure skates??

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If they are not used, then there is part of an animal that goes to waste. If we didn't have a huge number of meat eating people on the planet, I would feel the same as the Baby (and note the factor these are BABIES) seal issue. Even fishing has catch and release when they are too small...think about why. :yes: Remember the Buffalo in the great planes of America, humans have been down this path. Plucking Quetzal feathers out of a birds butt is not necessary. But if they were being raised for such and used to the fullest extent they could - even like Mink are - it would be acceptable IMO. The Native Americans used every part of a Buffalo except the bellow, get it, the only part they couldn't. I feel the same about hunting or like the Moose in Alaska - only the "unethical people" would strip the Moose of it's hide and leave the rest to decay in the street.

As we progress through evolution necessity changes, but at current time in our evolution, there is not a better alternative to leather in many different applications. We create intentionally a surplus of leather as a "co-product" of harvesting of cattle. With fur, there is no NEED other than a unnecessary desire to wear fur. This can be acceptable IMO if it is a raised animal -PETA would most likely not agree with me either.

And so I can be clear, Mink farms I am MORE OK with. Hunting (as law states should be followed) I am OK with. But things like killing for no reason but decoration I think show how slow and selfish evolution is. The Natives to areas with seals that kill them for food makes sense, ESPECIALLY when there is the knowledge that they are not KILLING BABIES because that is definitely counter productive to both populations.

And if the industry making FS boots starts making a large number of high quality synthetic Skating boots (there are some already - but not sure of how "world class" they are) I bet Surya has a pair.

Please note that I am respectfully disagreeing even though the comments quoted above I see no rational thought in what so ever. It is just one thing that has been said that I disagree with you and that is very normal and does not mean I don't have respect for you.:yes:

IOW, Surya is not ethically contradicting herself on this issue, where evidence dictates no deliberated response to those who try to demean her cause.

And I doubt that anyone IMO should be happy about clumping the killing of baby seals into the same category as raising to harvest cattle.

PETA condones threatening people who are just doing their job. Case in point my father was hounded with letters when he worked as a manager of a sporting goods store that *gasp* sold hunting a fishing equipment.

I don't think PETA is the best Animal Rights organization to put your support into. It seems while killing animals is bad threatening to kill humans is ok (though don't go to war, they'll get you for that too... double standard in my book).

Good point zanzibar about the skates. I wonder if there are any championship level synthetic skates. I would also love to see Surya and Johnny duke it out.

Maybe it's inherent in French celebrities. Anyone as old as I am and remember Brigette Bardot? who came down heavy on killing animals for fur.

What about killing people for oil? It's needed, isn't it?

Hiw

dutchherder, I fully agree with you. I am supportive of organizations that want to make sure that animals are treated humanely - both while they are alive and in how they are killed. Whatever respect I might have had for PETA (and I didn't have much to begin with) was gone after the exhibit they did comparing meat industry with Nazi concentration camps (http://web.israelinsider.com/Static/Binaries/Article/PETAbig_1.jpg). In no way do I believe that values of animals' and humans' lives can equate in any way, shape, or form. And opposing research... To me, no matter how many animals have to die to find a cure from a human ailment - it's worth it, as long as every effort is taken to minimize needless suffering and discomfort by the animals.

Joesitz said:

Maybe it's inherent in French celebrities. Anyone as old as I am and remember Brigette Bardot? who came down heavy on killing animals for fur.

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Yeah, I remember; Sofia Lauren pro fur vs. Brigitte Bardot anti-fur... Ahhh...

It is indeed a French thing. While fur is sort of a faux pas in the US, it's pretty much universally accepted in France, so doing a protest against it will get you more excentricity points there.

Joesitz said:

Hiw

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What is "Hiw" mean?

I guess I live a somewhat hypocritical existence. Love to eat meat and seafood. Love to wear fur and leather. Enjoy fishing as a hobby. Support hunting of non-endangered animals (deer for instance). Yet, it pains me greatly to see the senseless euthanizing of thousands of dogs, every day, year in-year out, all over the world.

Dogs are one of the few species of animals that due to their domestication, have a very hard time surviving on their own. Unlike baby seals or minks...they need humans to care for them. Yet, they are bred - born - and dropped off at shelters to die. Now that pains me.