Let's form an EXACT consensus on what a "cheated" jump is

Zuranthium · Jan 31, 2007

Taking both pre-rotation and underrotation into account, exactly how many spins in the air do you think a jump should be required to have to be ratified?

Mostly recently, Evan Lysacek did a Quad that pre-rotated a tiny bit and landed on the ice a quarter rotation soon. It was given credit.

Triple Loop and Salchow jumps are almost always pre-rotated a half turn and frequently underrotated by nearly a quarter turn in addition. They receive credit.

Triple Axles are sometimes pre-rotated to the point where the landing happens exactly where the blade left the ice (again, Lysacek stands out with this one). They are given credit. So, it seems to me, this should be the "norm":

Toeloop, Flip, and Lutz jumps: a total cheat of one third (1/3) of a rotation is allowed.

Salchow and Loop jumps: a total cheat of two thirds (2/3) of a rotation is allowed for a Triple or Quad; one half (1/2) of a rotation for a single or double.

Axle jump: a total cheat of one half (1/2) of a rotation is allowed.

~Z

Zuranthium · Feb 11, 2007

Bump. Any other opinions?

~Z

Mathman · Feb 11, 2007

The way my computer displays thread topics on the front page, it says "Let's form an EXACT consensus..." My first thought was, whatever the topic is, the chance of THAT happening is pretty close to zero.

The way it is now, do they take off GOE points for pre-rotating a triple Axel? That seems to be the worst offense.

Kasey · Feb 11, 2007

I'm not overly "in technique", but Lysacek's cheated take-off on the 3A is one of the worst cheats I've ever seen....at least a half turn cheat on the ice, if not more.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 11, 2007

pre rotation, uncompleted rotation, overrotation.

Pre rotation is not against the rules. Wish it were but it is not. One can do a double Toe in just 1-1/2 turns in the air.

uncompleted rotations or underrotated jumps is in the minds of the beholder. I, personally do not believe in downgrading but I would definitely give it a -3.

overrotated jumps like some skaters do, do not get upgraded to the higher jump. They just come off with lousy hooks after landing.

Joe

sk8addict · Feb 11, 2007

Joesitz said:
pre rotation, uncompleted rotation, overrotation.

Pre rotation is not against the rules. Wish it were but it is not. One can do a double Toe in just 1-1/2 turns in the air.

They sure made it against the rules for Amber Corwin. She was consistently marked down for pre-rotating her triple -triple combination. I'd say it's not against the rules for the judges favorites.l

Mathman · Feb 11, 2007

Mao Asada was another one who got dinged for pre-rotation on a regular basis. Especially for the second jump of a combination, ending with a toe loop.

mskater93 · Feb 11, 2007

Toe loops have a specific pre-rotation rule in the ISU communications and should be dinged for toe Axels.

R.D. · Feb 11, 2007

I thought that on single triple jumps, if there is more than 1/4 rotational cheat then it should be marked down. IMHO.

rjulie510 · Feb 11, 2007

I also wish ISU would get more strict on punishing pre-rotated jumps. It amazes me how Evan Lysacek's "triple axel" get ratified. (Or Kimmie Meissner's triple toe from her 3-3 combination at times.)

hockeyfan228 · Feb 12, 2007

There's no rules-based distinction between pre-rotation and overrotation. There's just rotation. How well the callers and judges apply the rules is inconsistent (callers) and appears to be so for judges.

The only jump call that looks consistent is the lack of penalty for flutzes and lips, based on the rarity of +3's in general. +3 start value would been required to net consistent +1's for Cohen, Asada, Suguri, Arakawa, Sebestyen, et. al. , and there are too many jumps of the same or better quality using the correct edge (Arakawa's lutzes, for example) that are not getting +3's, as judges stay primarily in the +1,0,-1 corridor.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 12, 2007

As I said before there should be no plus (+) GoEs. Just minuses (-) for badly executed jumps and spins. However, extraordinary spins and jumps should be reflected in the PCS scores where they belong.

I have spoken. :biggrin:

Joe

satorare · Feb 12, 2007

Mathman said:
Mao Asada was another one who got dinged for pre-rotation on a regular basis. Especially for the second jump of a combination, ending with a toe loop.

You should watch closely. Mao's "toe-axel" is not a problem now.
I think her best acheivement of this season is bringing back real toeloop to her program.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 12, 2007

Mathman said:
The way my computer displays thread topics on the front page, it says "Let's form an EXACT consensus..." My first thought was, whatever the topic is, the chance of THAT happening is pretty close to zero.

The way it is now, do they take off GOE points for pre-rotating a triple Axel? That seems to be the worst offense.

It seemed to me that Zuranthium was using Lysacek as an example of what he/she wanted to discuss but it came off as an opinion. of Lysacek. Cheating jumps in competition that differing from judges, for me, is in the eyes of the beholder. I would have preferred we discuss the example without naming anyone. But it's the season to GET Evan and Kimmie. So be it. Nothing constructive herel

Jow

R.D. · Feb 12, 2007

But it's the season to GET Evan and Kimmie

Sounds to me like people are gunning more for Johnny/Emily to me.

But if Evan/Kimmie keep winning then yes I expect a shift.

DJStuCrew · Feb 13, 2007

The two-footed landing. Seldom missed by judges, but every once in a while...

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 13, 2007

DJStuCrew said:
The two-footed landing. Seldom missed by judges, but every once in a while...

or ignored deliberately.
Joe

blue dog · Feb 13, 2007

Joesitz said:
or ignored deliberately.
Joe

don't you get credit now for a fully-rotated two footed triple?

if that's the case, then oksana won lillehammer without contest. she "landed' seven triples to six...but then again, she had an extra jumping pass, and cut out a spin...

Kasey · Feb 13, 2007

I don't think it's a matter of "getting" anyone. Some skaters are more egregious and obvious (and consistant) with cheats than others, thus they make good examples. If someone wants to take that as "skater bashing" or not constructive, so be it.

Spun Silver · Feb 13, 2007

Joesitz said:
But it's the season to GET Evan and Kimmie. So be it.

Joe, do you distinguish between those who are underwhelmed by Evan's and Kimmie's skating - giving plenty of reasons - and those who are out to "get" them?

Or is there some kind of "rally round the flag" requirement here?

Let's form an EXACT consensus on what a "cheated" jump is

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Mathman

Kasey

Joesitz (RIP)

sk8addict

Mathman

mskater93

R.D.

rjulie510

hockeyfan228

Joesitz (RIP)

satorare

Match Penalty

Joesitz (RIP)

R.D.

DJStuCrew

Joesitz (RIP)

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

Kasey

Spun Silver

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