Salchow question

Wolfgang · May 5, 2007

I guess I know the answer to my own question, but would still like some feedback from all you experts out there on this big cyber rink of ours.
I've been working on my Salchow, and have, as is frequently the case, encountered two basic ways of this being taught.
Version 1 says that once I am travelling backwards with my free leg extended behind me and my knee fairly deeply bent, I should do a sort of 'hook' or 1/2 a 3-turn, then swing my free leg forward and up, launching into the jump.
Version 2 says I should basically do a complete 3-turn, quickly followed by what basically amounts to a waltz jump.
Version 1 is harder, but I feel like version 2 is cheating.
What do you think?

Tinymavy15 · May 6, 2007

most people who are first learning the salchow actually create more of what you discribed as version 2. Once you get the idea, you aim for more of a version 1. I think that you shoudl aim for a version 1, but if it turns out as a version 2... don't sweat it. It will come with time.

silver.blades · May 6, 2007

Version 2 is easier to get up and it helps to get the feeling of the jump, once you get that and are more comfortable with it version 1 helps to make the jump less swingy. Both work fine for singles, I find version 2 alot easier for doubles but I know people who prefer version 1, it's just a preferance thing.

icestar · May 9, 2007

use both

use a combination of both. When you are in that final position on your back inside edge try using pressure on your inside edge (do this by bending your skating knee more) to make your edge start cuving more, thus creating rotation. As the edge brings you around to facing forward use the waltz jump take-off, ie. drive your free leg into the air.
Try not to use you upper body or freeleg to turn the jump, use the edge pressure you create on the ice. This will make the jump feel super easy. And yes, the single salchow is only 1/2 a turn in the air.

Wolfgang · May 9, 2007

Thanks for the input!
I'm making 2 mistakes:
I try to jump too soon, trying to get a full rotation in the air, result being that I sometimes land sideways on the inside edge, leading to a very sudden stop....
And I look behind me, which throws my landing balance off, reason being that in my classes I need to watch out so I don't land on top of someones' little girl....

Zuranthium · May 10, 2007

Wolfgang said:
I guess I know the answer to my own question, but would still like some feedback from all you experts out there on this big cyber rink of ours.
I've been working on my Salchow, and have, as is frequently the case, encountered two basic ways of this being taught.
Version 1 says that once I am travelling backwards with my free leg extended behind me and my knee fairly deeply bent, I should do a sort of 'hook' or 1/2 a 3-turn, then swing my free leg forward and up, launching into the jump.
Version 2 says I should basically do a complete 3-turn, quickly followed by what basically amounts to a waltz jump.
Version 1 is harder, but I feel like version 2 is cheating.
What do you think?

It's actually the opposite for me? Version 1 is easier and feels "less real".

Or maybe I should clarify...I feel like I'm cheating if I actively use my non-jumping leg while doing the Salchow. Look at Yagudins 3Sal:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oFZx3sSB0qg (it comes at the 2 minute mark)

It's basically a reverse Toeloop that way. Your legs are in the same position but you jump off the left leg and use the right leg to help you vault off the ice. Arakawa does her Salchows that way as well. Now look at Irina Slutskaya's 3Sal:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aJDa7X-O_zk (comes at the 1 minute mark)

The free leg doesn't touch the ice at all when she does the jump. That version is harder to me and also looks better.

It should be noted that VERSION 1 is how Timothy Goebel and Brian Joubert do their Quad Sals. Attempts at the Quad Sal using the version 2 method (Miki Ando) are less successul. Min Zhang is the only person I can think of who does a fully rotated Quad Sal that way, so it's definitely quite clear to me that the jump is a bit more difficult with that technique. Note that the free foot DOES sometimes touch down to the ice with the version 2 method, but it really isn't used as any kind of vaulting assist.

It probably is not a bad idea to learn to do the jump both ways.

~Z

Kypma · May 12, 2007

I'm pretty sure version two is a kind of cheating - isn't there an ISU rule that says that no jump other than the Axel should take off while facing forward?
As for the free foot touching the ice - I read somewhere that it's fine as long as the skater really takes off from the one leg, ie that all their weight is on the right (proper) foot. The cause for the free leg brushing the ice is that sometimes the knee bend is too great to avoid it.

Zuranthium · May 12, 2007

Kypma said:
I'm pretty sure version two is a kind of cheating - isn't there an ISU rule that says that no jump other than the Axel should take off while facing forward?

I think the exact rule is from a forward edge. Loops and Salchows with the full half turn before getting into the air are still going off of the back edge.

I pre-rotate just a quarter turn on my Salchow when it do it as Version 2 (the Version 2 I was talking about, not the Original Poster), but most people go the full half turn so I really don't think that's cheating. For Version 1, I do go the full half turn and you pretty much HAVE to for the jump to work like that (on a Quad anyway).

~Z

Kypma · May 13, 2007

Zuranthium said:
I think the exact rule is from a forward edge. Loops and Salchows with the full half turn before getting into the air are still going off of the back edge.

I was referring to the original version two, which states that a complete three turn should be done. You would then be on a forward edge. :yes: I never actually learnt version two, although it's possibly because I can't do a backward three...

Zuranthium · May 13, 2007

Kypma said:
I was referring to the original version two, which states that a complete three turn should be done. You would then be on a forward edge. :yes:

Erm...it's quite possible to change direction without changing from back to a forward edge. You can skate forwards on a back edge and skate backwards on a forward edge. You're stilling taking off from the back inside edge with a full half-turn on a Salchow.

Also, from what I can tell, the original poster isn't describing two different versions at all. Both of them are what I was talking about in version 2, the difference in his descriptions is just how long the skater is waiting on that back inside edge before they actually jump.

~Z

Wolfgang · May 13, 2007

The Original Poster (me) is indeed talking about two different versions, one with a little 'J-turn' (call it a 1/4 or 1/2 3-turn if you will) before the jump, another with a full 3-turn (you are now indeed on a forward edge, followed very quickly by what amounts to a waltz jump.
What I call the 'old lady' school of skating.

Anyway, I think I've figured out how to do version 1 (the right way....) without under-rotating.
I need to actually look where I'm going as I'm J-turning, then vault kind of forward and over an imaginary crossbar, did it pretty well a couple of times today.
Woohoo!
Now for the outstretched leg on the landing......

Zuranthium · May 13, 2007

Wolfgang said:
The Original Poster (me) is indeed talking about two different versions, one with a little 'J-turn' (call it a 1/4 or 1/2 3-turn if you will) before the jump, another with a full 3-turn (you are now indeed on a forward edge, followed very quickly by what amounts to a waltz jump.
What I call the 'old lady' school of skating.

You're not on a forward edge when you do the jump with a full 1/2 turn. You're already rotating and vaulting off that back edge. That's why people do it with a 1/2 turn in the first place...because it's building momentum and getting them into the swing of the rotation. You may roll up to the forward edge or toepick as you jump but you're not vaulting right off the forward edge at all.

The different versions of doing a Salchow are (#1) using the free leg to help PUSH you off the ice, or (#2) using the free leg to SWING you off the ice. What you're talking about are just different degrees of the swinging method.

~Z

Wolfgang · May 14, 2007

Ah, but you are on a forward edge (facing forward, going forward, all forward all the way) when you do, as 'my' version 2 'requires' a full , complete 3-turn.
As in 180 degrees.
About face.
Etc.
Then you do a waltz jump.
And, thusly, cheat.......

Zuranthium · May 14, 2007

You're not on a forward edge! If you were truly taking off from the forward inside edge, the jump would end up in a different place than where you actually find yourself. Your free leg is already in front of you and swinging after the half turn when you lift into the air.

If your free leg is actually behind you after doing the three turn and THEN you're swinging it through and jumping off the forward edge on your jumping foot...you've just done a Waltz/Axel jump with a difficult entry. Congrats.

But, no, a full half-turn on a Salchow is not a cheat as long as you're getting the necessary rotations in.

~Z

chinesechanfan · Jul 22, 2007

Wolfgang said:
I guess I know the answer to my own question, but would still like some feedback from all you experts out there on this big cyber rink of ours.
I've been working on my Salchow, and have, as is frequently the case, encountered two basic ways of this being taught.
Version 1 says that once I am travelling backwards with my free leg extended behind me and my knee fairly deeply bent, I should do a sort of 'hook' or 1/2 a 3-turn, then swing my free leg forward and up, launching into the jump.
Version 2 says I should basically do a complete 3-turn, quickly followed by what basically amounts to a waltz jump.
Version 1 is harder, but I feel like version 2 is cheating.
What do you think?

basically, just follow through the jump, timing is the key, and dont lean in too much in the inside edge. ppl always have problem with the lift or the spring in the takeoff and if u wanna have a nice textbook sal, complete with flying up in the air, should think bout the spring and lift of the jump. be checked in the takeoff and squared in the landing. meaning that ur shoulder is opened to ur skating side and ur leg is turned out in the takeoff and landing is like any other jump. dont do the dipping thing with the shoulder when u take off and same thing with the hips. dont do the swinging thing with ur free leg and dont get caught up in the inside edge too much in the take off, for that will cause swinging or bad liftoff. version 1 and two will lead u to swinging and getting caught up with ur edge but version one is better if ur takeoff has less of a three turn. the description of takeoff is as follows: a back inside edge (of medium curve) with a slight three-turn (about the size of ur toepick, the second edge). however, version 2 would be better if the waltz jump part is applied to the initial jumping part (the part where ur skating leg is off the ice by a few cm, and ur doing the initial transfer of weight).

Salchow question

Wolfgang

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

silver.blades

icestar

Wolfgang

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Kypma

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Kypma

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Wolfgang

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Wolfgang

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

chinesechanfan

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