Totmianina & Marin won't come back | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Totmianina & Marin won't come back

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I'm glad they're not returning to eligible competition, because they don't really want to. They gave up everything for many years for an Olympic medal. Now they're back home, with options to skate in North America, Europe, and Japan when they want to, they get to sock away some money and help their families (since they said the money they made in the post-Olympic year was to pay back what they owed), and Marinin has a lovely girlfriend with a rigorous schedule as a ballerina -- why have two high-powered training schedules that don't allow them any time to see each other when he doesn't have to?
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
? Isn't it the IOC that says both partners have to be citizens of the same country to compete in the Olympics? There is no Japanese law about that.
Japanese law will not allow dual citizenship. There is no way for Kawaguchi to remain a Japanese citizen if she is granted Russian citizenship.

The IOC has no problem with dual citizenship, as long as there is one citizenship in common for both skaters.
 

Zanzibar

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 22, 2003
You make a joke. It is Tat who is power of this team.


So you think "Sourpuss" is the stronger of the two? I'm not thinking technically...I meant artistically. A woman with emotion, expression, artistry and a few other things I won't mention here, lol.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Are you okay today? LOL. V&M are dancers, not pairs skaters. S&Z are not competing anymore. But TT&MM will have work cut out even if they return with S&S, Pang & Tong and Zhangs in the mix. Although they had amazing consistency, it's another story when you don't have any motivation and have stopped for that kind of intense training for more than a year.

Not sure about K&S' chance, seems to me another O&S in the making without the lines.
I'm plumb loco. I meant that wonderful pairs team from Canada Dube and Davidson, although V&M will be there ahead of a Russian Dance team, imo. The rest is what I was talking about. Glad you agree.

As for other Russian teams, I don't think come up to T&M and Piseev needs a team to place for the 3 spots the following year. If K&S is that mixed nationality team, they are somewhat better than O&S, but Pairs has become a very international race now. They will have to work hard to get three teams for Russia and then, unfortunately, they will not be able to go to the Olys.
 
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skatergirlaj

On the Ice
Joined
May 22, 2004
I think Tatiana and Max will have to make the best decision for themselves as to whether to stay or go.IMO i think they are work perfectly together,i don't see a need for Max to have a new partner,if they were not compatible they wouldn't have an OGM.And it's very likely they wouldn't find that same sychronization with someone else. Also I agree with the poster that said that Tatyana is strong,i think she is both a very strong woman and a strong skater,it took alot of guts for her to come back from her accident like she did to continue skating and then to go on to win the OGM with Max by her side,even Max has said that she is the strong one.And also judging by the photos I've seen of her from Ilya's tour,i think she also has a really beautiful smile :)
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
But TT&MM will have work cut out even if they return with S&S, Pang & Tong and Zhangs in the mix.

Remind me when was the last time Pang/Tong, the Zhangs, or the Germans, have ever come even close to beating Totmianina/Marinin. Explain to me how Pang/Tong have improved since the Olympic season in anyway, or how the Zhangs have not even gotten alot worse since the Olympic season. The Germans are the only ones who have improved, but their inconsistency still had them losing the silver at Worlds to Pang/Tong, the same Pang/Tong who have never got within sight of Totmianina/Marinin in head to head battle. Now it looks like Totmianina/Marinin are not returning, but if they had the other teams would have to improve an enormous amount for Totmianina/Marinin to have "their work cut out for them". The only thing Totmianina/Marinin would need to worry about
is not losing too much from their Olympic season level. Anything close to that, and they romp vs the current field, with Shen/Zhou leaving again.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The IOC has no problem with dual citizenship, as long as there is one citizenship in common for both skaters.
I meant, it is an IOC rule (not a Japanese law) that says that to compete in the Olympics both members of the team have to be citizens of the same country. If the IOC dropped that rule there would be no need for anyone to seek dual citizenship. (Not going to happen, I know.)

What I'm trying to say is that the tail is wagging the dog. Someone should abandon his/her citizenship for the sake of a sports contest???

Better to change the rules of the sporting event than to have to pass special bills in the U.S. Congress (as in the case of Tanith Belbin) or to petition to change the citizenship requirements of Japan.

Is Jaques Rogge really that big?
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The only thing Totmianina/Marinin would need to worry about is not losing too much from their Olympic season level.
But I thought that was the whole point of this interview. That T&M have no interest in putting in the work necessary to get their skill level back up to world class.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
What I'm trying to say is that the tail is wagging the dog. Someone should abandon his/her citizenship for the sake of a sports contest???
I went to the Olympic site to try to find the mission or purpose. I did find:

The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team events and not between countries. They bring together athletes designated by their respective National Olympic Committees (NOCs) and whose entries have been accepted by the International Olympic Committee (IOC). They compete under the technical direction of the International Sports Federations (IFs) concerned.

The first sentence, "The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team events and not between countries," would seem to support your suggestion, as would the first half of the second "They bring together athletes designated by their respective National Olympic Committees (NOCs)", i.e, if it was okay with NOCs to have non-citizen team members in any 2+ person entry, it should be okay with the IOC.

The upside is that athletes could field the strongest teams in pairs and ice dance, football, yachting, double sculls, synchronized swimming, team handball, bobsledding, etc., as long as:

a. The team met the minimum citizenship participation (ex: 50% or more of the team must be a citizen of the sponsoring country)

b. The non-citizen agreed to compete under the flag of the sponsoring country.

However, the rub is the second part of the sentence, "and whose entries have been accepted by the International Olympic Committee (IOC)," which requires all team members to be citizens of the country for which they compete:

-respect the spirit of fair play and non violence, and behave accordingly on the sportsfield ;
- refrain from using substances and procedures prohibited by the rules of the IOC, the International Sports Federations or the National Olympic Committees (NOC);
- respect and comply in all aspects with the Olympic Movement Anti-Doping Code.
- Any competitor in the Olympic Games must be a national of the country of the NOC with is entering him.

http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/olympians/index_uk.asp


Jacques Rogge spoke about the mission:

Our primary mission will not change. This is to promote the values of Olympism and ensure the regular celebration of the Olympic Games. Within this framework, however, we are endeavouring to reduce the size of the Games to a more manageable level, to intensify the fight against doping and continue the reforms already underway.

Under Olympism and Olympians I found:

"The important thing in these Olympiads is not so much winning as taking part" said the Bishop of Pennsylvania, Ethlelbert Talbot, in his sermon on 19th July 1908 in London during the Games of the IV Olympiad. Coubertin thought this message was "of great philosophical significance" and used it himself, adding his own personal touch. In his writings, Coubertin considered sport in its educational sense, declaring that "the important thing in life is not victory, but the fight; the main thing is not to have won, but to have fought well."

As far as the ideals and mission are concerned, there is nothing inherent about citizenship in these. I would argue that in many cases clas, religion, and/or language might be a more common bond across nations than between national team members. The downside about mixing citizenship on teams is that nations could "buy" participants from other countries, but, on the other hand, the teams from countries could be bigger if some of the team participants could come from other nations. And no one would force the national baseball team, for example, to choose non-citizens.
 
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attyfan

Custom Title
Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
? Isn't it the IOC that says both partners have to be citizens of the same country to compete in the Olympics? There is no Japanese law about that.

Thanks -- that is what I meant by "joint citizenship"!
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Better to change the rules of the sporting event than to have to pass special bills in the U.S. Congress (as in the case of Tanith Belbin) or to petition to change the citizenship requirements of Japan.
There is a big difference between what US Congress did for Tanith and what Yuka is asking the Japanese government to do. All the Congress did for Tanith was essentially expedite things; the change for the citizenship requirements here was negligible. Japan, OTOH, has a specific law (it might even be in the constitution, I'm not sure) concerning dual citizenship.

BTW, while US does allow those going through naturalization to keep their old citizenship, the oath one takes does include wording on giving up any prior allegiance. (Wasn't a problem for me, my family was required to relinquish Soviet citizenship before being let out of the country - to the tune of 500 rubles per person!)
 

evenstar

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Pang/Tong have come within sight of Totmianina/Marinin in recent times. In the 2006 TEB, they were only separated by one or two points.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Pang/Tong have come within sight of Totmianina/Marinin in recent times. In the 2006 TEB, they were only separated by one or two points.

Actually they were seperated by over 4 points. It was Totmianina/ Marinin's absolute worst competition from the time of the 2004 Worlds to the 2006 Olympics, and Pang/Tong were virtually flawless, and Totmianina/Marinin still won comfortably. So apparently Pang/Tong's best has little hope of beating Totmianina/ Marinin's worst. Then at the Olympics when both skated their best Totmianina/Marinin won the gold by a whopping 15 points, while an almost clean Pang/Tong were still pushed right off the podium by both a flawed and injured Shen/Zhou and what happened with the Zhangs, while finishing 18 points total behind Totmianina/Marinin.

I like Pang/Tong but they have limited success vs other top teams, even the top teams not name Totmianina/Marinin or Shen/Zhou. Pang/Tong have never beaten either Totmianina/ Marinin or Shen/ Zhou, not even once have they managed to. Pang/Tong tend to only beat Petrova/Tikhonov, Savchenko/ Szokoly, or the Zhangs when they have serious errors. I have never seen them beat any of those teams skating cleanly while they were considered contenders, with one exception of Petrova/Tikhonov at the 2006 Worlds. Their only wins over the Zhangs skating cleanly were prior to the 2004-2005, which prior to the Zhangs were not considered contenders. Their only wins over Savchenko/Szokoly skating cleanly were prior to the 2005-2006 season, which prior to Germans were not considered contenders.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
There is a big difference between what US Congress did for Tanith and what Yuka is asking the Japanese government to do. All the Congress did for Tanith was essentially expedite things; the change for the citizenship requirements here was negligible. Japan, OTOH, has a specific law (it might even be in the constitution, I'm not sure) concerning dual citizenship.
Now I'm confused. Is Yuka asking the Japanese government to do anything?

Anyway, my point was more along the lines of, doesn't the United States Congress have anything better to do than monkey around with questions of who gets to go to a sports contest? (For instance, they could investigate baseball players taking steroids. Oh well, I guess it keeps them out of mischief, since it is clear that they are not going to take a stand on anything of national consequence.)
BTW, while US does allow those going through
naturalization to keep their old citizenship, the oath one takes does include wording on giving up any prior allegiance. (Wasn't a problem for me, my family was required to relinquish Soviet citizenship before being let out of the country - to the tune of 500 rubles per person!)
When I did my post doc in Germany, since I was working at the University I was officially an employee of the German National Government. So I had to sign a pro forma loyalty oath to Germany.

But so as not to get in trouble when I came back home I had to write
down at the bottom something about, "nothing in this ocument is to be interpretted as compromising my first loyalty to the government, laws and constitution of the United States." Whatever. :)
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Kawaguchi said in an interview that she was going to talk to someone high up in the Japanese government, to see if he could make an exception for her. It didn't sound like this would be new legislation, but some kind of executive order.
 

Tesla

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 28, 2005
Kawaguchi said in an interview that she was going to talk to someone high up in the Japanese government, to see if he could make an exception for her. It didn't sound like this would be new legislation, but some kind of executive order.

No offense, but I hope the Japanese government says no. What makes Kawaguchi so much more special than any other Japanese athlete who had to make that choice yet got no special treatment?
 

netnuts

Match Penalty
Joined
May 3, 2007
No offense, but I hope the Japanese government says no. What makes Kawaguchi so much more special than any other Japanese athlete who had to make that choice yet got no special treatment?

Because she is the bendiest pair skater in the world? LOL.
 

Kypma

Final Flight
Joined
May 12, 2007
Back to the original subject of this thread - Totmianina and Marinin.
I was surfing the news articles here on goldenskate and found this list of members of the National Team (and its extensions - youth team, junior team, novice team) in Russia, and Totmianina and Marinin are listed as senior pairs. Can they be on the National Team even if they'te not competing?!?
Anyways, here's the link: http://www.goldskate.ru/team/index_lat.shtml

Kypma.
 

discoduck

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
I believe that list came out before the article that said they weren't coming back. I'm not looking at the dates at the moment but I seem to recall that.
 
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