European ladies

Given the technical content at the top of the Ladies' field, I think the only skater who can be competitive without meltdowns from the Ladies from Asia is Kostner. If you see Kostner skate alongside Gedevanishvili, there's no comparison: Kostner's effortless speed trumps Gedevanishvili's frantic cross-overs, and apart from the impossible telegraphs into her edge jumps with her fists clenched and her arms held tight against her sides, Kostner's form is so, so much better.

In my opinion, Meier is in the same boat as Suguri, although I think she is a better skater technically: she needs the 3A and 3/3 from the top Ladies attempts to falter. I would love to see Glebova up the ante, be consistent, and be solidly in the top ten at Euros, but I'm not sure this will ever happen. Korpi and Poykio are beautiful skaters, but they don't have the technical content or consistency to be competitive for World titles, unless all of the top skaters falter, and they hit a rare, perfect LP.

There a number of Euro Ladies that are lovely to watch, though.

Tinymavy15 said:

Carolina can only medal if she has the triple triple. Her artisty and consistancy is lacking. I am glad that she finally got better tecqince on the double axel.... but her spirals and positions in spins just don't look pretty to me.

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The triiple triple triple Caroline has!!! She beat Kwan with that.

Joe

mizu_iro said:

She's not dramatic but I think she's more artistic than Miki and more versatile than Mao. She's not hyper-flexible but certainly her positions and line are above average.

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I agree. Caro may not be very dramatic or theatrical, but has nice musicality. Mao seems to me to be more exquisite when skating to classical music. When I compare Mao's SP and Caro's SP, I think Mao had more balletic, exquisite moves (nonetheless I just loved both SPs so much). But Caro can skate to the other kinds of music well whereas Mao may not necessarily.

Caro also has a very nice posture. She may not be as stretched as ballet dancers, but has nice extension. Besides, her slim body, and long legs and arms certainly help her line.

Her spins may not be extremely fast, but has nice positions. I especially like her camel.

She seems to have a pretty long wait before entering some of her jumps, which may be due to her speed. But she does not seem to be getting minus GOE for that. So perhaps it's not a problem in terms of getting marks.

Above all, I think that her skate has the class of her own. Coupled with her beautiful choices of costumes and music, she is the whole package.

Joesitz said:

The triiple triple triple Caroline has!!! She beat Kwan with that.

Joe

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Caro beat Kwan in the QR, but Kwan beat Caro in both the SP and FS, even though Caro did her 3/3 in all 3 programs. Kwan succumbed to nerves in the QR and she finished too many points behind Caro to catch up.

chuckm said:

Caro beat Kwan in the QR, but Kwan beat Caro in both the SP and FS, even though Caro did her 3/3 in all 3 programs. Kwan succumbed to nerves in the QR and she finished too many points behind Caro to catch up.

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I would argue that Kostner succombed to nerves in both the SP and LP, and that's why Kwan beat her in those two phases.

Looking at the actual results,

QR, before 25% factoring:

Kwan: 99.96
Kostner: 106.78
Difference: 6.82 before factor (or the difference in base value between two 3/3's and two 3/2's), 1.46 after factor

Kwan's issues with nerves were mitigated by the QR factor, or she would have been quite far behind.

Kwan beat Kostner by .40 in the SP, and .69 in the LP, critical in an ordinals system but virtual ties under CoP.

Her artistry is better in the SP rather than in the LP. Her speed is great and when she does a spiral it seems that she is flying on the ice.
Tinymavy, a spiral doesn't have to be Sashesque to be great . There are other aspects in spirals, not just flexibility. To be honest I prefer a Kwan spiral to Sasha's. This isn't a Sasha criticizing (you all now how I love her artistry and temperament on ice), but I think too much emphasis was given to her spirals. Sure they were great, but this doesn't mean they have to be like that to be perfect.

To return to Caro. I think she has still flows. She is inconsistent, sometimes hesitant. Her spins are so-so.
It will be interesting who will develop more next season in the various aspects of skating. My eyes are on three Asians (Mao, YuNa, Miki), three Americans (Kimmie, Alissa, Caroline) and three Euros (Caro, Sarah, Elene). Ahem, I have a soft spot for Marchei, too!!

good post Gio

I do believe that posters of Ladies' Figure Skating are bent on Spirals, which in my time, when the skaters did one well, it enhanced the Ladies' program - never was a deciding factor for scoring except for the Presentation. I can even accept an Open Fan elsewhere in the Program for affect.

However, doing a 40 second test in present day competion, of how far the joints will allow a skater to extend a leg is a bore, imo. Most senior Ladies have the ability to sustain a variety of positions on proper edges or they shouldn't be in Seniors.

How about a solo triple loop jump at high speed instead?

Joe

Joesitz said:

good post Gio

I do believe that posters of Ladies' Figure Skating are bent on Spirals, which in my time, when the skaters did one well, it enhanced the Ladies' program - never was a deciding factor for scoring except for the Presentation. I can even accept an Open Fan elsewhere in the Program for affect.

However, doing a 40 second test in present day competion, of how far the joints will allow a skater to extend a leg is a bore, imo. Most senior Ladies have the ability to sustain a variety of positions on proper edges or they shouldn't be in Seniors.

How about a solo triple loop jump at high speed instead?

Joe

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I agree that extreme flexibility is not necessarily essential. But I do see some senior ladies struggle with stretching legs (not necessarily about the angle of the joints, but the stretch/tension in the back, knees, ankles, and toes) and keeping smooth edges (not uncommon to see bouncing spiral). Nonetheless, these do not necessarily seem to affect scores too seriously, which I find a bit surprising.

morninglight said:

I agree that extreme flexibility is not necessarily essential. But I do see some senior ladies struggle with stretching legs (not necessarily about the angle of the joints, but the stretch/tension in the back, knees, ankles, and toes) and keeping smooth edges (not uncommon to see bouncing spiral). Nonetheless, these do not necessarily seem to affect scores too seriously, which I find a bit surprising.

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Struggling in any element is a no no. It's not just in spirals. I've seen senior ladies struggle with jumps and spins as well.

When I compare Mao's SP and Caro's SP, I think Mao had more balletic, exquisite moves

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Is this in the Rules that a female skater must have balletic moves?
Sasha Cohen did a wonderful skate to a jazzy Fosse number, Hernando's Hideaway. It wasn't balletic. It was a Tango. Of course Sasha has good knee turn out and good toe pointing, but she is not a ballerina. Thai dancers also have turned out knees and pointed toes.

Joe

Not ti extend this discussion any further on my part. Well..... It is well known that all dance forms have been meshed into Dance. Even in ballet, there is much reaching out to other forms of dance and incorporating them into ballet. Yes, and Figure Skating reaches out for all dance forms. to single out the Ballet as the most important is not exactly correct. Ballet forms such as turn outs in the knees and toes always good but if you do a character dance on skates turning in could be more effective.

Instead of skater A is more balletic, the better way would be Skater A is more versatile. JMO

Joe

Morninglight - It's not that ballet has no place in figure skating. God knows, figure skating needs all the means to make it successful. It's just the figure skating, imo, needs many more options to incorporate a style other than ballet..

BTW, Ballet exercises are what gives the dancer their turn outs in knees and toes, among much more things. One is to have strong stomach muscles. As for graceful arms, that is called porte au bras (sp) and that helps too.

But one finds these exercises in other forms of dance. Tap dancing one will find turn out at knees and toes and also inward. Stomach muscles are a must to incorporate such wild moves. Arms are guided by the rhythm, and can be balletic-like.

When a poster says she is so like a ballet dancer. I don't gloat over that. I just think it's expected given the music the skater is using. But can the skater do Hernando's Hideaway?

(Tried to reach you but you do not accept PMs.)

Joe

Mathman said:

What about the ladies?
.....
Kiira Korpi is gaining ground with a bronze at Europeans last year.

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It was great that Kiira won the bronze in 2007 Europeans (Poykio 4th), but unfortunately she has not competed in Worlds very well so far (2006 10th and 2007 only 14th). I have always thought that Kiira has gotten way too much all kinds of media & other attentions, compared to her actual achievements. That is not at all good for a young skater´s success, in my opinion.

I believe that in the mixt of all these great skaters, we cannot forget about Joanie Rochette, I remember when she changed coach and went with the Sebastian Britten, a canadian gold medalist way back in the early 90's. He was good, she went backthe year after with the same old coach and she did not do has well as with the other new team,with her longtime coach, she seems not to have the confidence to do it, because if she would be able to put two programs together, and I remember her big win at nationals, where she did have the triple triple jumps, so why did she loose them ???

Personaly, I think that sometimes, it does not hurt you to change, and when she did change for a season with the other team, it was bettter for her, she was in better shape and very consistant, now it seems that she has lost her confidence, I hope anyway, all the time at world's that the best win... So I think that if she would go back with that winning team she add for a year or two, she might be able to upgrade her jumps to triple triple instead of triple doudle and always doing some mistakes, with that team, I liked her program Firebird, she was wonderful and when you see her in exhibition, or a show, she is a much different skater, she is polish, she skates with emotions much more, she is just lovely to watch... I do not think that the comeback of last year of Cynthia Phaneuf will hurt her, Cynthia was good for a come back but with her body changes and her body type now, it will be difficult to do all those triples like before so Joane is set on the 1st spot for a long time that is if someone else does not comefrom Juniors and make a uge surprise lke she did and place 3rd the first year at seniors national...

So this is my opinion, she still have time to get better for the next olympics, if she makes the changes soon, she could very well be a surprise at the next olympics of even worlds....

chania36 said:

I believe that in the mixt of all these great skaters, we cannot forget about Joanie Rochette...

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I thought this thread was about EUROPEAN ladies. :scratch:

chuckm said:

I thought this thread was about EUROPEAN ladies. :scratch:

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Indeed!! Nothing could be finer than to see sweet Carolina at the ceremonies.