Is Worlds "unfair" to individual skaters? | Golden Skate

Is Worlds "unfair" to individual skaters?

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
I don't like the idea of the possibility of a person making it to worlds depend on how somebody else performed last year. It really contradicts the idea of figure skating being an individual sport. I would feel better if the top 24 ranked elligable players automatically quallified and there was 24 more spots open that other skaters can earn in a qualifying round. That way skaters will make Worlds completely on their own account.
 

PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
I think I know what you are asking ( I think ). If Skater A is the 3rd best in Canada, and is decidedly better than Skater B, who is the best in Slovakia, than Skater B will go to Worlds rather than the superior Skater A. And you think Skater A should go instead. Is that right?
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
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Jul 28, 2003
Not only does it depend on how others skate, it also depends on the whim of the federation. I think having 24 top ranked skaters qualify automatically is a bit too much, but having top 10 qualify automatically would sound great to me (and it would raise the importance of rankings); the only question is - how many ADDITIONAL skaters can a country send. Take the following example: say US has qualified to send 3 skaters to the Worlds. And say Cohen, Meissner, and Hughes are all in top 10. Does it mean US can send 3 MORE skaters, for a total of 6? Or does it mean that no one else from US can go?

In general, I'd like to see top 10 or so skaters in each discipline essentially have contracts with ISU as opposed to their federations. This would include a different type of contract for GP events, more akin to what those skaters are used to from other quarters - guaranteed money regardless of placement, yet heavy fines for not showing up for any reason including medical.

The reason I think this would be a good idea is that the participation of those skaters increases viewership. Take the following example. At the last Olympics, USFSA could have well decided not to send Kwan. I know in case of Kwan she wasn't exactly a top ranked world skater anymore, but the point is that even if it were not in USFSA's interest to have her compete, it was in the ISU's.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I like the concept that Figure Skating is or should be a Sport for individuals.

However, the media has made it a Sport of Nationalities - wrong, in my view.

The Federations tend to go with what is best for the Nationality and not particularly for the individual skater.

We have to live with this.

Joe
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
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Jun 27, 2003
the media made it that way? the ISU is the one who governs the sport as a whole and each country has it's own little entity... seems to me teh sport had a lot to do with how this is run ;)

I think this system works, otherwise there'd be about 3 countries that dominated and the other countries wouldn't have a chance at all :laugh:
 

attyfan

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Medalist
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Mar 1, 2004
... I think this system works, otherwise there'd be about 3 countries that dominated and the other countries wouldn't have a chance at all :laugh:

ITA! Could someone explain to me how, under a procedure that is more "fair" to individuals, some one like Kim Yu-Na "breaks into" the top ranks as the first from her country to do so?
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
I think I know what you are asking ( I think ). If Skater A is the 3rd best in Canada, and is decidedly better than Skater B, who is the best in Slovakia, than Skater B will go to Worlds rather than the superior Skater A. And you think Skater A should go instead. Is that right?

Yes that is about right.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
the media made it that way? the ISU is the one who governs the sport as a whole and each country has it's own little entity... seems to me teh sport had a lot to do with how this is run ;)

I think this system works, otherwise there'd be about 3 countries that dominated and the other countries wouldn't have a chance at all :laugh:

I think it would be better if the ISU would send experince coaches to developing countries like India to improve their skating program instead of throwing atheletes into compitions their not ready for. I think that runs a greater risk of discouraging the skaters instead improving their quality. Most of ones learning shouldn't come from tapes and watching skaters practice and compition.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Not only does it depend on how others skate, it also depends on the whim of the federation. I think having 24 top ranked skaters qualify automatically is a bit too much, but having top 10 qualify automatically would sound great to me (and it would raise the importance of rankings); the only question is - how many ADDITIONAL skaters can a country send. Take the following example: say US has qualified to send 3 skaters to the Worlds. And say Cohen, Meissner, and Hughes are all in top 10. Does it mean US can send 3 MORE skaters, for a total of 6? Or does it mean that no one else from US can go?
Well I was thinking of completely droping the process of using past World Championship Standings and Nationals as a deterimination of qualification. Outside the top ten who autiomatically qualified, All federations would send up three skaters per discipline (if they have that many). The 40 skaters with the highest point total will go on and skate the short program and long with the top ten ranked
 

PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
How about this? Make national championships ISU approved events with an international panel of judges. That way, fair compairsons can be made as to the quality of the skaters. A superstar like Yu-Na would still have a chance to shine.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
ITA! Could someone explain to me how, under a procedure that is more "fair" to individuals, some one like Kim Yu-Na "breaks into" the top ranks as the first from her country to do so?
If they did well Grand prix events and competitions like 4CC then their World Rank will be high enough to automatinlly quallify for Worlds Championships no matter how they peform at nationals.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
the media made it that way? the ISU is the one who governs the sport as a whole and each country has it's own little entity... seems to me teh sport had a lot to do with how this is run ;)

I think this system works, otherwise there'd be about 3 countries that dominated and the other countries wouldn't have a chance at all :laugh:
this proves my point that the set up is geared to Nationalities and not the Best Skaters.

and the American media has a lot to say about that!!!

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Lots of suggestions to improve the system, but the bottom line is which skaters are the best in the world. duh. That's what competition is all about. Who cares what their nationalities are?

Joe
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This question is all the more intriguing to me because of the politics involved. Any move toward giving the ISU more direct contact with and control over individual skaters will risk running into two roadblocks.

First, as Toni mentions, ever since it's founding in 1892 as a confederation of 15 European skating organizations, the ISU has existed primarily as a forum where representatives of National Federations can get together to establish uniform rules for the sport, etc.

No individual skater -- not even Sonia Henie :) -- has ever been a "member" of the ISU.

For this to change, and for the ISU to allow skaters to qualify for ISU championships directly without going through their federations, would mean that the fedeartions would be turning over the majority of their power to the central ISU administration (Cinquanta and his staff). The federations -- especially the smaller ones -- would have a lot to lose and little to gain by doing this.

(On the other hand, the ISU Judging System has already taken away the lion's share of influence from the judges nominated by the member federations and given it to the technical panel which is appointed directly by the ISU. So maybe Cinquanta is trying to move things in this direction anyway.)

The second problem is that, for better or for worse, figure skating sees itself as an "Olympic sport." The IOC does not invite individual athletes to compete in the Olympics. Rather, each country sends a team in the hope of winning more medals that the other guys do.

The rules are set so that each country, not each individual athlete, is allowed to participate on an equal footing.

All of which doesn't mean that big changes are impossible. Just that there is a lot of inertia to overcome if someone really did want to bring about a new way of looking at things. :)
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I like the concept that Figure Skating is or should be a Sport for individuals.

However, the media has made it a Sport of Nationalities - wrong, in my view.

The Federations tend to go with what is best for the Nationality and not particularly for the individual skater.

We have to live with this.

Joe

Unfortunately the competive side of figure skating has always been about a countries Nationalism. On the other hand, Figure Skating as a whole - generally speaking - has always been a sport for individuals. Of course, it's ones country that the indvidual skater is representing so it's a bit of a two way street. Skate Canada, for example, sends its best skaters to compete at home in the Nationals and internationally. At the same time they support the skaters and give them the training and direction needed. The skater's pay back by representing their country. However, the skaters also gain as individuals by their experiences and medals and titles earned. So really competitive figure skating in the end benefits both the skater and his/her country.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
But the problem with ISU rankings is that rankings aren't one year only.. Rankings also combine a lot of years.. So newer skaters are at a disadvantage...

What happens as well if a really good skater gets injured during the Grand Prix series...Then, there's the idea that there are only so many Grand Prix spots available for each country. Mirai Nagasu is another example of the flaws of your idea... She did very poorly at nationals two years ago, (didn't make it to the finals) so she didn't get a Junior Grand Prix placement. But a year later she won Junior nationals and placed second at Junior Worlds? So surely she belonged there.

Your not going to have a guaranteed system or a perfect system... I think that the fact that this is the world championships means that in all honesty, you want the world and as many of the best skaters as possible competiting.. And the only way to do it is have skaters qualify through their nations. I think the system is pretty fair, because teams with deeper talent get more spots...Whereas everyone hopefully gets one spot so someone like Yu-na Kim can have a shot at competiting..

Now, do I think that Fumie Suguri last year would have placed in the top 10 at Worlds. Yes... It's still the best figure skaters in the world.. Its' just the best skaters of each country compete. And the fact that Fumie couldn't place in the top 3 at her own national championships suggest more than likely she wasn't going to medal at Worlds.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The question topic is: Is the World Champinships unfair to individual skaters? I believe the thread implies that the system of choosing skaters for a chance to compete at a World Championship may be faulty. If one thinks the present system does not allow all individual skaters this chance than the answer is yes. What would follow then, should be suggestions to improve the present regulations so that all individual skaters can apply for a chance to at least be considered for this event.

At present the governing body, ISU has devised it's system to allow all nationalities interested to send a maximum of three skaters to the event based on a criteria. How can they improve that so skater D in one national group who is ranked higher than skater A in another national group can also compete.

However, if one thinks the present system is working in the best interest for the sport, then the answers is no. No change is necessary.

Joe
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I think it would be better if the ISU would send experince coaches to developing countries like India to improve their skating program instead of throwing atheletes into compitions their not ready for. I think that runs a greater risk of discouraging the skaters instead improving their quality. Most of ones learning shouldn't come from tapes and watching skaters practice and compition.

I think it should be a coach's decision where they train, not the ISU or another governing body.

could you imagine the ISU telling someone like Frank Carol they were going to relocate him to Timbuktu, Africa???? :eek:

and the American media has a lot to say about that!!!

Joe

so the other nations listen to teh American Media in order to decide what their skatering federations do? *confused* I could see where the US media influences American skating, and to some extent ISU decisions (02 Olys, anyone?) but I don't think it has quite as much power as they're being given credit for here.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
the American media certainly controls much of TV. Small nations may buy the clip of their skaters in competitions which we never see in on our networks.

Anyway, all that is too political for what the question is asking.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
I think it should be a coach's decision where they train, not the ISU or another governing body.

could you imagine the ISU telling someone like Frank Carol they were going to relocate him to Timbuktu, Africa???? :eek:

.

I agree. I just thought there would probably be some coaches that might volunteer for such a chance to help the sport grow. I doubt the ISU will become military like and start drafting coaches and sending them to Irag for the Freedom Skating Federation of Iraq Against All Terrorism.
 
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