Is A Quad Really Necessary for the Men?

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 28, 2007

There are 4 Ladies with more than decent 3x3s.

There are 4 Men (including Evgeni) with more than decent Quads.

Can Johnny, Jeffrey, Nobunari, Evan, Thomas, Kristoffer get on the podium without one?

IMO, only if one of the more assured of the 4 will faulter in his LP. And which one is anyone's guess. Of course you can name a favorite.

Joe

Tonichelle · Jul 28, 2007

Well... Jeff got on the olympic podium after falling on his quad...

I dunno I think the only way it could come into serious play is if Evgeni just uses every quad he has lol... it's really not something all the top names have

Kasey · Jul 28, 2007

Um, I think that Joubert "has" more quads than Evgeni. Brian has landed 2 different quads in a program. I don't recall Evgeni landing a 4sal and 4toe in the same program. Yes, he's claimed to land some of the others in practice. But if we go by that, Cohen "had" a quad.

Mathman · Jul 28, 2007

On paper, there is a crucial difference between how the new judging system treats quads for men and triple-triples for ladies. A triple-triple counts against a skater's Zayak ceiling, so a program with a triple-triple may not score all that many points more than a program without.

But a 4T and a 3T are two separate jumps, so doing a 4T carries a double bonus -- big points in its own right AND it gives you more space under the Zayak cap to do more triples.

Ladskater · Jul 29, 2007

According to Paul Martini who commentated last year for the CBC - "In order to win the men must come armed with the quad." So yes, unfortunately the quad is the deciding factor in who stands at the top of the podium.

GoldMedalist · Jul 29, 2007

Joesitz said:
Can Johnny, Jeffrey, Nobunari, Evan, Thomas, Kristoffer get on the podium without one?

Thomas and Evan will be doing the Quad/Triple combo in both the Short and Long Program from now on. So, no, they can't get on the podium without the Quad because if they mess them up too bad their entire programs will be affected by the miss.

Johnny, Jeffrey, and Oda can get on the podium with a Quad.

Kristoffer has no chance of a podium spot unless the top skaters are getting injuries left and right that cause them to skate very poorly and/or withdraw. Or unless he skates pristine clean ALL season long, building momentum and thus gaining the judges' respect (which is something he doesn't have yet).

Taan · Jul 29, 2007

quads can make a huge diffference but only if they are done well, which often times they are not and receive negative GOE.

a 4-2 combo in the sp is worth less than a 3-3

in the sp skaters that cannot do a 4-3 would be best advised to do the quad as their solo jump, and do a 3-3 for the combo

a shaky quad-double combo in the sp or lp would receive alot less points than a great 3-3 combo so i think quads are undervalued in CoP

imo quads toe loops should be worth around 12 - 13 points, not 9

jeffrey buttle exploits weakness in CoP to maximise points like earning 5 points for a planned fall on a quad. which helped earn him a prestigious olympic medal. encouraging skaters to fall to earn points and win medals, is imo , a sign of a scoring system with serious problems/flaws.

so really, perhaps quads are important, but not to actually land them, but to rortate them to pick up 5 points...every skater should learn to rotate and fall on a quad in their program to earn those xtra 5 crucial points. of course a fall mars a program , but this does not matter in a points based system.

a quad is not nessesarry at all imo CoP emphasises the entire package, spins especially can earn great points.

since CoP spins have really become waaaaaay important, being flexible is as important as jumping

rutinia · Jul 29, 2007

Tonichelle said:
Well... Jeff got on the olympic podium after falling on his quad...

That wont happen anymore. As same, buttle's skate at Tokyo would be enough to put him on the podium of Moscow. The time has changed.

Mafke · Jul 29, 2007

Mathman said:
But a 4T and a 3T are two separate jumps, so doing a 4T carries a double bonus -- big points in its own right AND it gives you more space under the Zayak cap to do more triples.

I know those are the rules at present, but they really work against quality skating cause I guy can load up on toeloops (I recall Plushenko and Yagudin both doing three toe loops in the SP, yechhhhh) and get a bonus without demonstrating well rounded jumping skills.

If I could change one thing about COP it would be that the 3tl and 4tl are not differentiated for zayak purposes.

GoldMedalist · Jul 29, 2007

Taan said:
in the sp skaters that cannot do a 4-3 would be best advised to do the quad as their solo jump, and do a 3-3 for the combo

You're not allowed to do the Quad as the solo jump. It has to be a Triple, out of footwork.

Mafke said:
I know those are the rules at present, but they really work against quality skating cause I guy can load up on toeloops (I recall Plushenko and Yagudin both doing three toe loops in the SP, yechhhhh) and get a bonus without demonstrating well rounded jumping skills.

Your solo jump has to be different than either of the jumps you did in combination. I'm pretty sure. You can do 4T + 2T and then 3T as your solo jump, but not 4T + 3T and then 3T.

I can't recall ANYONE doing 3T as their solo jump, though (in the past several years). Not any serious competitors anyway.

gkelly · Jul 29, 2007

GoldMedalist said:
You're not allowed to do the Quad as the solo jump. It has to be a Triple, out of footwork.

Either is allowed (for senior men only). They're just not allowed to do quads for both those jump elements, even if they're different quads. I'm sure that if it ever becomes commonplace for men to be doing two different quads in their long programs, then doing two (different) quads in the short will also be allowed.

In fact, in the 1999 and 2000 seasons, when quads were first allowed in the short program, they were *only* allowed as the jump out of steps, not as the combination. Not that many of the guys who tried were doing many steps before them.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 29, 2007

The biggest difference for me between the Short and the Long is the time duration. There are so many DON'Ts for both contests and I really do not see any purpose of having the two. I presume the avid fans would be upset if the Short was taken away - not for competitive reasons but for personal passionate skating needs.

Joe

Mafke · Jul 29, 2007

GoldMedalist said:
Your solo jump has to be different than either of the jumps you did in combination. I'm pretty sure. You can do 4T + 2T and then 3T as your solo jump, but not 4T + 3T and then 3T.

You're right, I was thinking back in 6.0 terms. I'm glad for at least that change (but want more!).

Tinymavy15 · Jul 29, 2007

I think that skater's don't need a quad to medal but they need one to win. Evan Lysack, Jeffrey Buttle both medaled at worlds with no quad. What i would like to see is somebody winning worlds without one, but with Evgeni's return i doubt that will come true.

GoldMedalist · Jul 29, 2007

gkelly said:
Either is allowed (for senior men only). They're just not allowed to do quads for both those jump elements, even if they're different quads. I'm sure that if it ever becomes commonplace for men to be doing two different quads in their long programs, then doing two (different) quads in the short will also be allowed.

In fact, in the 1999 and 2000 seasons, when quads were first allowed in the short program, they were *only* allowed as the jump out of steps, not as the combination. Not that many of the guys who tried were doing many steps before them.

Ah, I didn't realize CoP still went along with that. I haven't seen a Quad out of footwork for a very long time.

I remember the "steps" Michael Weiss did into his Quad for the 2000 SP consisted of...a spread eagle held for 1 second. LOL. People don't try Quads out of footwork for good reason.

oleada · Jul 29, 2007

I don't think it's a coincidence that the top 5 finishers at Worlds all had quads. The quad has become very important in men's skating.

antmanb · Jul 30, 2007

Mafke said:
I know those are the rules at present, but they really work against quality skating cause I guy can load up on toeloops (I recall Plushenko and Yagudin both doing three toe loops in the SP, yechhhhh) and get a bonus without demonstrating well rounded jumping skills.

Do you mean LP? There's not way they would done three toe loops - each did 4/3 toe loops and triple Lutz out of footwork and solo triple axel in their SPs.

Ant

slutskayafan21 · Jul 30, 2007

Tinymavy15 said:
I think that skater's don't need a quad to medal but they need one to win. Evan Lysack, Jeffrey Buttle both medaled at worlds with no quad. What i would like to see is somebody winning worlds without one, but with Evgeni's return i doubt that will come true.

I do think a skater needs a quad not only to win, but to medal now. The year Buttle and Lysacek both medaled quadless at Worlds quadless was an almost historic mess of an event. Plushenko pulling out, Joubert turning in arguably the worst free skate of his career, Weir very injured. Lambiel popping 3 triples into singles in his free skate and still won gold by a whopping 16 points. He still could have taken out all his quads, fallen atleast one more time and still won comfortably. That kind of event wont repeat itself now.

Lysacek this year now had a quad at Worlds and still wasnt close to winning a medal. You wont see an event like the 2005 Worlds again. You also wont see a quadless guy like Buttle on a Worlds podium ever again.

As for a guy winning a Worlds without a quad. :rofl:

As I already said a guy medaling at Worlds without a quad will never happen again. The thought of a guy winning Worlds without it is beyond even beginning to comprehend. The mens field is much much too deep for a guy to win Worlds without a major jump. Nobodies skating is that superior to all the rest anyway to make up the deficit of not having that major jump.

Mafke · Jul 30, 2007

antmanb said:
Do you mean LP? There's not way they would done three toe loops - each did 4/3 toe loops and triple Lutz out of footwork and solo triple axel in their SPs.

I just checked some old sp's and you're absolutely right. I have no idea what I was thinking of (I probably got some things mixed up).

I'm not backing down from my assertion that two triple or quad toeloops is plenty in any program. If a skater opens up an lp with a 4/3 toeloop combination I don't want to see any more toeloops (that are more than 2 revolutions) from them in that program.

Mathman · Jul 30, 2007

But it wouldn't be so bad (aesthetically) to do 4T+3T, then 3Lz+3T or 3F+3T.

However, that Zayak rules do discourage those extra toe loops. This skater has "wasted" one of his allowed repeated jumps on a low scoring triple toe.

The only thing that would make sense (if the skater can do it) would be 4T+3T, then solo 4T, and not do another 3T.

Is A Quad Really Necessary for the Men?

Joesitz (RIP)

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Kasey

Mathman

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

GoldMedalist

Match Penalty

Taan

rutinia

Match Penalty

Mafke

GoldMedalist

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gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

Mafke

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

GoldMedalist

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oleada

antmanb

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Mafke

Mathman

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