Scoring Jump Entrances

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2007

How do judges score on a jump if the jump is supposed to have transitions leading up to it? I just watched a youtube of a top skater who took long entrances into her jumps. The jumps were fine, but I did not see any transitions leading up to them. My question is (and I have no answer to it) how is this scored?

The jumps should get base value if done correctly?

There should be a deduction only in the GoEs?

How does the relevant PCS criteria handle it?

(Just my enquiring mind)

Joe

Mathman · Nov 9, 2007

The only jump that is required to have transitions leading up to it is the solo (non-Axel) jump in the Short Program.

The penalty is:

No steps and/or movements preceding the jump, -3, -GOE. (That is, -3 for no steps, but if other aspects of the jump are excellent (in the plus range) the final GOE for the element could be -2 or -1, but not 0 or positive.)

Only 1 step/movement, -2 GOE.

Steps/movements not immediately preceding the take-off, -1 to -2 GOE.

It seems to me that in practice these rules are interpreted fairly generously as to what constitutes a "step or movement."

The penalty on any jump (SP or LP) for "long preparation" (telegraphing) is -1 GOE.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2007

Mathman said:
The only jump that is required to have transitions leading up to it is the solo (non-Axel) jump in the Short Program.

So a large telegraph entry into the combo is ok.
Are there any special rules for the long program?

No steps and/or movements preceding the jump, -3, -GOE. (That is, -3 for no steps, but if other aspects of the jump are excellent (in the plus range) the final GOE for the element could be -2 or -1, but not 0 or positive.)

Only 1 step/movement, -2 GOE.

Steps/movements not immediately preceding the take-off, -1 to -2 GOE.

It seems to me that in practice these rules are interpreted fairly generously as to what constitutes a "step or movement."

I'm not sure what the differences are between a step, movement or even a transition I would think that a step is placing one's foot after a jump landing to go for another jump. A movement would be a small jump a la mzurka into another jump, most likely an axel, but could include a 3turn into a Flip. the trnsition must be a series of basic steps to the jump, I guess Moves-in-Field are transitions,

The penalty on any jump (SP or LP) for "long preparation" (telegraphing) is -1 GOE.

Let's check the protocols on Ladies SP in CoR and see if that is being enforced.

Joe

gio · Nov 9, 2007

The GOE goes up if a skaters does any kind of element/movement before a jump. But if he/she doesn't do that, there is no deduction (with the exception of the solo jump in the SP).

For example
-a split jump into a 3Toe
-a walley before a jump
-a Ina Bauer, Charlotte, Spiral, Spread Eagle, etc. immediately preceding the jump
-or various steps and turns into a jump

Obviously doing a certain element before a certain kind of jump could be easier or more difficult. So I think it should be reflected in GOE (from easier +1 to more difficult +3)

I remember Kristi Yamaguchi doing an element right before her 3loop. That has made her loop very difficult and could lead to an error. If COP were in use and the 3loop were clean, with that entrance she should have received from +1 to +2GOE. How do you call that element, BTW??

I don't know how it is counted an one-foot axel into a 3sal or 3flip? That kind of axel it is counted as an Axel jump in combo, or as a transition???

redhotcoach · Nov 9, 2007

A one-foot axel is not a listed jump so therefore it is a transition or beauty move and not counted in the jump value....

gsrossano · Nov 9, 2007

All elements should be preceded by transitions (though not necessarily steps or turns as transitions, the transition could be another movement). The transitions are marked in the Transitions PC.

In the Short Program, for the solo jump that is required to have preceding steps, if there is only one or no preceding steps, there is a GoE reduction of -1 to -3, with the GoE potentially required to be negative in the extreme case.

For ALL other jumps, telegraphing (riding a long entry edge) has a GoE reduction of -1, referred to as a "long preparation" in ISU 1445.

So ignoring the SP solo jump:

Crossovers or stroking directly into a jump is no GoE reduction.
Crossovers or stroking followed by a long preparation into a jump is a -1 reduction.
Transitions directly into a jump is no GoE reduction.
Transitions followed by a long preparation into the jump is a -1 GoE.

redhotcoach · Nov 9, 2007

It seems that the 'long transition' mark is not deducted evenly across the board at competitions that I have been watching.

There are a couple of senior women who have exceedingly long backward outside edges into their double axel - I mean all the way across the ice before taking off - and get a plus in the GOE!! We are talking at least a 3 second edge --
As well as the double axel, these same skaters also have very long edges into their 3sal and other jumps, including doubles when popped..

In fact, at one competition, most of the senior women had very few linking and transition moves in their short program - just stroking and long edges into jumps -- and scored higher than the skaters who actually had choreography and linking moves.,

Can't figure it out for the life of me......

gkelly · Nov 9, 2007

redhotcoach said:
A one-foot axel is not a listed jump so therefore it is a transition or beauty move and not counted in the jump value....

A one-foot axel (regular axel takeoff, landing on the same foot) is counted as an axel -- gets the same points as an axel, fills a jump slot.

An inside axel (different takeoff, from the other foot) is not a listed move so it doesn't get points and doesn't fill a slot.

gsrossano · Nov 9, 2007

gkelly said:
A one-foot axel (regular axel takeoff, landing on the same foot) is counted as an axel -- gets the same points as an axel, fills a jump slot.

An inside axel (different takeoff, from the other foot) is not a listed move so it doesn't get points and doesn't fill a slot.

Yes. Exactly right.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2007

gkelly said:
A one-foot axel (regular axel takeoff, landing on the same foot) is counted as an axel -- gets the same points as an axel, fills a jump slot.

An inside axel (different takeoff, from the other foot) is not a listed move so it doesn't get points and doesn't fill a slot.

I'm a bit confused on the Inside Axel. If I take off on forward inside edge and land on the same foot on a back outside edge would that be counted for points?

Joe

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2007

gsrossano said:
All elements should be preceded by transitions (though not necessarily steps or turns as transitions, the transition could be another movement). The transitions are marked in the Transitions PC.

In the Short Program, for the solo jump that is required to have preceding steps, if there is only one or no preceding steps, there is a GoE reduction of -1 to -3, with the GoE potentially required to be negative in the extreme case.

For ALL other jumps, telegraphing (riding a long entry edge) has a GoE reduction of -1, referred to as a "long preparation" in ISU 1445.

So ignoring the SP solo jump:

Crossovers or stroking directly into a jump is no GoE reduction.
Crossovers or stroking followed by a long preparation into a jump is a -1 reduction.
Transitions directly into a jump is no GoE reduction.
Transitions followed by a long preparation into the jump is a -1 GoE.

Thank you for the above.

So it's the long preparation into jumps that get a demerit and there is no demerit for using cross overs/stroking or transitions if there is no preparation. I would think that the transitions into a jump would at least get something in the PCS score.

Joe

gkelly · Nov 9, 2007

Joesitz said:
I'm a bit confused on the Inside Axel. If I take off on forward inside edge and land on the same foot on a back outside edge would that be counted for points?

No.

gsrossano · Nov 9, 2007

Joesitz said:
I would think that the transitions into a jump would at least get something in the PCS score.

Yes, the transitions into the jump should always be taken into consideration in the Transitions PC.

gsrossano · Nov 9, 2007

Joesitz said:
I'm a bit confused on the Inside Axel. If I take off on forward inside edge and land on the same foot on a back outside edge would that be counted for points?

Joe

All listed jumps can be landed on either foot, and are still considered listed jumps (except the half-loop). By the rules, an Axel MUST take off on a forward outside edge to be considered a listed jump. Since a One-Foot Axel takes off on a FOE it is a listed jump. There is no listed jump that takes off on a forward inside edge in the SoV. So the Inside Axel is not a listed jump.

There is no logical justification for these definitions, IMO, but that is what is in the rules.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2007

gkelly said:
No.

So if one takes off on a forward outside edge and lands on that same foot as take off but on a back outside edge (not easy since the momentum is not going that way) there are points. I should hope so!

Did I get it? If not, please explain:

A one-foot axel (regular axel takeoff, landing on the same foot) is counted as an axel -- gets the same points as an axel, fills a jump slot.

Joe

gkelly · Nov 9, 2007

Joesitz said:
So if one takes off on a forward outside edge and lands on that same foot as take off but on a back outside edge (not easy since the momentum is not going that way) there are points. I should hope so!

Did I get it? If not, please explain:

You can do a jumped rocker or jumped counter from, say, RFO to RBO. It's only a half turn in the air, so it won't get points -- no half jumps get points.

If you can add another whole revolution to that kind of jump, changing the direction of rotation in the air, you'll have invented a new move that no one has ever done and you should get the innovative move bonus.

The reason no one has ever done it is that it's pretty much impossible. If it were possible, someone would have done it sometime over the past century-plus of skating history.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2007

gkelly said:
If you can add another whole revolution to that kind of jump, changing the direction of rotation in the air, you'll have invented a new move that no one has ever done and you should get the innovative move bonus.

The reason no one has ever done it is that it's pretty much impossible. If it were possible, someone would have done it sometime over the past century-plus of skating history.

Very interesting and innovative but I agree no one will risk that trick.

Mathman · Nov 9, 2007

On the positive side (to get back to the question of how "transitions" into jump elements are scored), the Program Component "Transitions and Linking Footwork and Movement" addresses this pretty directly.

Definition: The varied and/or intricate footword, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. This also includes the entrances and exits of technical elemetns."

It also seems to speak to "Skating Skills":

"Overall skating quality: edge controle and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabularu (edges, steps, turns, etc),...

And I would think that interesting entries into jumps could count in choreography as well.

As for GOEs, not so much, it seems. To get a +1 or a +2 GOE on a jump all you have to do is demonstrate "good technique on at least three (for +1) of the four phases of the jump (preparation, take-off, rotation, landing)" or "good or excellent in all four phases (for +2).

Only when it comes to +3 GOE do the rules mention "unexpected or difficult entry" as one of the criteria (in conjunction with "superior in all phases").

mskater93 · Nov 9, 2007

A 1 foot Axel lands on a back inside edge, not outside Review an old Jill Trenary program

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 10, 2007

mskater93 said:
A 1 foot Axel lands on a back inside edge, not outside Review an old Jill Trenary program

Indeed it does, and it can also land on back outside edge if the take off is from a forward inside edge, aka Boekel.

Joe

Scoring Jump Entrances

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

gio

redhotcoach

gsrossano

redhotcoach

gkelly

gsrossano

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

gkelly

gsrossano

gsrossano

Joesitz (RIP)

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

mskater93

Joesitz (RIP)

Similar threads

Connect with us