Change Edge Spirals All Look Alike

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 10, 2007

There doesn't seem to be much variety in the Spiral Sequence of competitive skating. It looks like there will be a forward inside spiral and as the change edge is about to happen a hand will start to grasp a folded spiral on the forward outside edge. None of it is as smooth as Kwan's change edge spiral, imo.

After that is completed the Spiral Fan happens. The sequence to me is the same as a three turn - standard. Is it not possible to have an innovation, or are all competitors compelled to do the same thing?

Judging, of course will be on edging, and I suppose how high the original spiral free leg gets? What else should the judges look for, if anything?

Joe

Lumi · Nov 10, 2007

Alissa has pretty interesting and very beautiful spiral sequence in her Swan SP.

Tinymavy15 · Nov 10, 2007

i would love to see some skaters do a back change of edge spiral... a back charlotte on a straight edge!. there are so many beautiful positions.

Mathman · Nov 10, 2007

Joesitz said:
Judging, of course will be on edging, and I suppose how high the original spiral free leg gets? What else should the judges look for, if anything?

According to the GOE guidelines, this is what the judges are supposed to look for:

* pattern shape and size

* energy and focus (perhaps more important for step sequences than spirals)

* speed and flow

* control and committment of whole body

* extension and flexibility

(Interestingly, edge quality is not specifically listed.)

To get positive GOEs from the judges, you have to be superior in several of these aspects.

But IMHO the problem -- the reason all spirals look the same -- is because the rules for the levels are quite specific and pretty much dictate to the skaters what they must do to achieve a high mark on the element. The level is called by the tech specialist and is out of the hands of the judges.

Since the level is more important CoP-wise than the GOE, skaters must concentrate on putting in the required number of changes of position, etc., rather than on the 5 GOE criteria (extension, etc.)

For instance, a level 1 spiral with a whopping +3 GOE and a level 2 spiral with a substantial +2 GOE both net the skater 3.3 points.

If that same skater blows off the GOE -- who cares about quality? -- and instead does all the required positions, edges, etc., to get a level 4 from the caller, with 0 GOE from the judges -- that skater gets 3.4 points.

Of course a skater who doesn't do a spiral at all but does land a double Axel gets 3.5 points.

gkelly · Nov 10, 2007

Tinymavy15 said:
i would love to see some skaters do a back change of edge spiral

Here's one (toward the end of the sequence):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w60uFjJ9KWE

She did a more highlighted back change of edge in this year's version of the spiral sequence at Skate America, but I can't give you a direct link.

... a back charlotte on a straight edge!

What do you mean by a straight edge? If you mean a flat, that won't count as part of the spiral sequence but some skaters do them as transitions.

skates · Nov 10, 2007

watch michelle's fields of gold if you want to see a back change of edge spiral

redhotcoach · Nov 10, 2007

skates said:
watch michelle's fields of gold if you want to see a back change of edge spiral

Michelle did a beautiful charlotte.....However, the rules changed this season and many skaters who were able to do a charlotte on a straight edge last year as part of their spiral sequence and got HUGE bonuses ------no longer do so.

The charlotte MUST be on an edge - outside or inside, and of course must be held for at least three seconds to count as part of the spiral sequence.

Any spiral or change of edge done on a flat or straight line is not counted this season. Rationale being that it is more difficult to do things on an edge.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 11, 2007

Thanks MM for the breakdown on what to watch for in a Spiral. That's a hoot that they do not list Edging.

The change edge comes from if I remember correctly Figure 6B of the School Figures, Forward Inside edge, rise slightly and fall slightly into a Forward Outside edge. No bobbles. Edging is very important in this serpentine figure.

Still, the CoP has made the actual sequences ALL look alike. The Sequence is like a School Figure, every skater seems to do the same sequence.

I see more charlottes in the moves-in- field than I do in the spiral sequence.

Joe

nymkfan51 · Nov 11, 2007

Why bother including edges ... this is just skating, after all. :sheesh:

This is the kind of stuff that makes me wild.:scowl:

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 11, 2007

In the Pre-bad-hip of Kwan, nobody could do a change edge spiral as she did. She never bobbled at the change even in her later years. Why, pray tell me, would I want to see more spirals than that especially in an all alike boring sequence?

I know, I know, the POINTS. All skaters should get the same points, imo.

Joe

nymkfan51 · Nov 11, 2007

I hear you, Joe. Her spirals were a thing of beauty. The steadiness and speed ... not to mention the joy on her face (the heart that Dick always refers to)

It's paint by number now .... who cares if it's nice to watch anymore.

gkelly · Nov 13, 2007

Tinymavy15 said:
i would love to see some skaters do a back change of edge spiral...

Here's another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNrCXqQUhFI

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 14, 2007

gkelly said:
Here's another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNrCXqQUhFI

Suzuki did a nice change of edge and she has a nice spiral position but she grasped her skate in a one hand bielman for the back outside edge.

I would like to see a back inside change edge back outside 'normal' spiral throughout.

Kind of like a Reverse Kwan.

Joe

sindarin · Nov 14, 2007

Joesitz said:
I would like to see a back inside change edge back outside 'normal' spiral throughout.

Joe

I hope you are referring to this one. At 3.45, she did a normal back COE spiral before turning it into a charlotte to end the program. Truly genuine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT9DhdNt3aU

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 14, 2007

sindarin said:
I hope you are referring to this one. At 3.45, she did a normal back COE spiral before turning it into a charlotte to end the program. Truly genuine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT9DhdNt3aU

That whole skate was unbelievably gorgeous. If she could turn that 3z x 2r inro 3z X3r and skate like this, she would be the next Oly Champ. (although, like everyone else, she does prerotate the loop in combo.

Yes, the change edge spirals are incomparable in any direction. That is called excellent technique.

I liked her comments about skating for herself and happy that others appreciate it. It's what I've always said, MK draws one into her program; she does not go after the audience or judges with acrobatic extensions - just performs figure skating like no one else.

Joe

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 14, 2007

Back on Topic: Do you think change of edge spirals all look alike? That there is no variety in this sequence of ladies competition?

If there is variety this year, can you link it to a picture.

Joe

gkelly · Nov 14, 2007

Given the way the rules are set up this year, pretty much all spiral sequences that are aiming for level 4 will include
a change of edge, probably forward inside to outside but not necessarily
one unassisted arabesque position probably before or after the change of edge
at least one catch-foot arabesque or Biellmann position
the third position may have the leg in front or to the side with or without hand assist, or a Charlotte or layout position

There will be some variations on which positions to put on which edges, whether to do the change of edge backward or forward and before or after the spiral on the other foot, and the specific difficult variations of the positions. Some skaters may put interesting transitions between the change-edge spiral and the spiral on the other foot; others may put simple strokes between; and the ones who conserve speed the best will only use one push in between.

But most of the spiral sequences will consist of pretty much those elements in various combinations.

Mathman · Nov 14, 2007

But seriously. Compared to this (another performance of Fields of Gold -- the back COE spiral starts at 3:35), what we are seeing now is just awful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr01qTQ1_FI

gkelly · Nov 14, 2007

You know, it occurs to me that a skater needs regular access to near-empty practice ice to develop that skill. It would be an accident waiting to happen with 10-20 other skaters on the ice.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 15, 2007

gkelly said:
Given the way the rules are set up this year, pretty much all spiral sequences that are aiming for level 4 will include
a change of edge, probably forward inside to outside but not necessarily
one unassisted arabesque position probably before or after the change of edge
at least one catch-foot arabesque or Biellmann position
the third position may have the leg in front or to the side with or without hand assist, or a Charlotte or layout position

There will be some variations on which positions to put on which edges, whether to do the change of edge backward or forward and before or after the spiral on the other foot, and the specific difficult variations of the positions. Some skaters may put interesting transitions between the change-edge spiral and the spiral on the other foot; others may put simple strokes between; and the ones who conserve speed the best will only use one push in between.

But most of the spiral sequences will consist of pretty much those elements in various combinations.

With all this possible variety, why do most (way more than half) insist on doing the same sequence? FI Spiral, change edge to FO but grasping the free leg into a one handed bielman like position. After a few steps of no significance a Fan is opened up. It all looks the same to me. The points, of course, will matter and that is why we see so much of the same thing. I would assume the edging is most important to the scoring, followed by flexibility and personal taste.

Joe

Change Edge Spirals All Look Alike

Joesitz (RIP)

Lumi

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Mathman

gkelly

skates

redhotcoach

Joesitz (RIP)

nymkfan51

Joesitz (RIP)

nymkfan51

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

sindarin

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

gkelly

Mathman

gkelly

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