Did Cohen Have the Desire to Win?

The Kimmie thread is getting way off topic so I thought I'd create a side thread for all the Cohen talk.

On that topic, I personally think she wanted to win, but she just did not have the competitor's mindset. That prevented her from really buckling down for four minutes and getting it down. But such a skater is not all that easy to find or manufacture.

JMHO

I think Sasha wanted it too bad. I think she was hurt by the fact that she came after so many great champions that could skate clean. She would be skating great and all of a sudden she just would fall or stumble. I also think she was very compeitive. She landed the majority of her jumps. It was just those little mistakes that kept her from the top of the podium. She had so many great qualities though and I really miss her skating.

flying camel said:

I think Sasha wanted it too bad. I think she was hurt by the fact that she came after so many great champions that could skate clean. She would be skating great and all of a sudden she just would fall or stumble. I also think she was very competitive. She landed the majority of her jumps. It was just those little mistakes that kept her from the top of the podium. She had so many great qualities though and I really miss her skating.

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I agree. IMO The 6.0 system hurt Sasha somewhat because she did not skate clean. If she came along after the 6.0 system I think she would have fared a lot better in terms of titles because her great qualities would have been rewarded under COP. It is rare that we see a perfect program even from the top ladies. Mistakes are becoming the norm.

Sasha was competitive and the desire to win was there, but I think her jump problems messed with her head. I miss her skating too.

demarinis5 said:

I agree. IMO The 6.0 system hurt Sasha somewhat because she did not skate clean. If she came along after the 6.0 system I think she would have fared a lot better in terms of titles because her great qualities would have been rewarded under COP. It is rare that we see a perfect program even from the top ladies. Mistakes are becoming the norm.

Sasha was competitive and the desire to win was there, but I think her jump problems messed with her head. I miss her skating too.

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Huh? For half of her career, Sasha skated under the CoP system. After she won silver at 2000 Nationals, she skated under 6.0 in the 2000-2001 GP, the 2001-2002 season (she missed 2001 Nationals with a back injury), and the 2002-2003 season. CoP was introduced in the GP during the 2003-2004 season, and Sasha romped, winning the GPF over Irina Slutskaya. 2004 Worlds was the last one under 6.0, but Sasha did manage to win silver. She won silver under CoP at 2005 Worlds, silver at the 2006 Olympics, and bronze at 2006 Worlds.

Sasha was just as vulnerable under CoP as she was under 6.0 because of her inconsistent jumps. She'd be even more vulnerable today, because of the crackdown on flutzing.

Sasha wanted to win so badly that she concentrated on winning rather than on skating. So often, as soon as she made a mistake in the FS, the rest of her performance suffered because she felt victory slipping away and her 'perfect' skate was not to be. The only exception to this pattern was the Olympics, where she started off with two big mistakes at the start of her FS, then buckled down and skated full out for the rest of the program.

chuckm said:

Sasha was just as vulnerable under CoP as she was under 6.0 because of her inconsistent jumps. She'd be even more vulnerable today, because of the crackdown on flutzing.
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Just about all of the ladies today are getting zinged for their flutzing even the great Asada, and talk about inconsistency most of the ladies competitions have become a splatfest. I don't think Sasha would be any worse off or vulnerable under COP than the current crop of top ladies imo she would fit right in.

eta: My last sentence is meant as a compliment to Sasha.

Yeah, Sasha spent most of her career under COP or at least half of it.

I don't think that Sasha would be that competitive though against the new guard. Mao/Yu-na are much better jumpers then her, and they are closing in on the artistic side too.

I know Sasha is saying that she wants to compete again, but I remember reading on a review about Fashion on Ice that it took Sasha four tries to complete the triple salchow.....So nope, don't think we will be seeing Sasha next year.

Sasha definitely wants to win- though perhaps at that worlds after the Olympics she didn't have the emotional energy.

Sasha always struck me as a very nervous competitor with a lot going through her head. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if she could mentally hear the groans of Dick and Peggy after she makes a mistake in her program.

bekalc said:

I know Sasha is saying that she wants to compete again, but I remember reading on a review about Fashion on Ice that it took Sasha four tries to complete the triple salchow.....So nope, don't think we will be seeing Sasha next year.

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We attended Fashion on Ice last Saturday night. Sasha did not do any retakes. You may be confusing her with one of the other skaters who did do retakes (Caryn, Joannie, Silvia?).

Whether or not Sasha goes back to competitive skating, I hope we'll continue to see her skating, period!

iluvtodd said:

We attended Fashion on Ice last Saturday night. Sasha did not do any retakes. You may be confusing her with one of the other skaters who did do retakes (Caryn, Joannie, Silvia?).

Whether or not Sasha goes back to competitive skating, I hope we'll continue to see her skating, period!

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Oh, someone said she did. I'm really sorry, I guess I was wrong and the other person confused her.

bekalc said:

I don't think that Sasha would be that competitive though against the new guard. Mao/Yu-na are much better jumpers then her, and they are closing in on the artistic side too.
I.

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Well I am not sure about that. If I had to pick who was the better all around skater (and as we know from the recent past in COP, jumps are important but you do not need a 7 tiple program to win, didn't Asada win gold recently with 4 jumps or maybe it was 5) it would have to be Sasha. But that is JMO

Off Topic - Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!!!

demarinis5 said:

Well I am not sure about that. If I had to pick who was the better all around skater (and as we know from the recent past in COP, jumps are important but you do not need a 7 tiple program to win, didn't Asada win gold recently with 4 jumps or maybe it was 5) it would have to be Sasha. But that is JMO

Off Topic - Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!!!

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That's very true... But what about speed and ice coverage. Sasha has never been really great at that, and I like the girl... Especially in comparision to let's say Yu-na Kim who gets great speed and ice coverage.

bekalc said:

That's very true... But what about speed and ice coverage. Sasha has never been really great at that, and I like the girl... Especially in comparision to let's say Yu-na Kim who gets great speed and ice coverage.

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Maybe. But we are both off topic here. The question posted by RD is
"Did Cohen have the desire to win? I say Yes.

demarinis5 said:

Maybe. But we are both off topic here. The question posted by RD is
"Did Cohen have the desire to win? I say Yes.

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Yes, I believe she had the desire to win. :thumbsup:However, she did not have the mental strength to win.:no:

I think most skaters at this level WANT to win (or why spend all the money and time and risk of lifetime injury such as hips :scratch:etc.)..........but they either:

1. are physically not able to gt to the top level (strength in men such as Buttle, height gets too much, girls outgrow pairs etc....basic geneshwell
2. do not have the mental toughness during competitions to allow to focus such as Chouinard, Cohen, Sandhu, etc.
3. don't have the work ethic to train to get there eg Bobekarty:
OTHER? Any thoughts? coaching?

Probably the desire to win but maybe not the jump technique, solid and strong edges, speed and ice coverage, and nerves under pressure, to win.

The underlying assumption of these threads is that Cohen was so much better than everyone else that we have to look for a reason why she didn't win everything in sight. We don't ask, for instance, whether Amber Corwin had a desire to win.

Nationally, Cohen had the bad luck to come into the game before Michelle was done. Internationally, her two Worlds silver medals were second to all-time best performances of Arakawa and Slutskaya.

That's sports. IMHO it doesn't require psychoanalysis.

Mathman said:

Nationally, Cohen had the bad luck to come into the game before Michelle was done. Internationally, her two Worlds silver medals were second to all-time best performances of Arakawa and Slutskaya.

That's sports. IMHO it doesn't require psychoanalysis.

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Cohen's failure to win big events should not just be put down to quality of competition:

2002 Olympics- fell in long, Hughes who was trailing her after the short wins gold.
2002 Worlds- fell in short, fell twice in final long.
2003 U.S Nationals- stumbled in short, fell and stumbled twice in long.
2003 Worlds- fell in short, fell twice in long.
2004 U.S Nationals- led after clean short, fell and stumbled in long.
2004 Worlds- again led after clean short, botched jump and had other shaky landings in long, still losing only on split decision.
2005 U.S Nationals- bobbled a jump in short, fell on one and bobbled another jump in long.
2005 Worlds- had small stumbles in every program.
2006 Olympics- fell twice in long.
2006 Worlds- made a total mess of both her qualifying and long performances.

Clean competitions by Sasha in World, Olympics, U.S National Championships: Zero.

Winners of all World events since 1999, and of all U.S events since 2002:

1999 Worlds winner- Maria Butyrskaya clean
2000 Worlds winner- Michelle Kwan clean
2001 Worlds winner- Michelle Kwan clean
2002 Olympics winner- Sarah Hughes clean
2002 Worlds winner- Irina Slutskaya clean
2003 Worlds winner- Michelle Kwan clean
2004 Worlds winner-Shizuka Arakawa clean
2005 Worlds winner- Irina Slutskaya clean long
2006 Olympics winner- Shizuka Arakawa clean
2006 Worlds winner- Kimmie Meissner clean
2007 Worlds winner- Miki Ando clean

2002 U.S Nationals winner- Michelle Kwan clean
2003 U.S Nationals winner- Michelle Kwan clean
2004 U.S Nationals winner- Michelle Kwan clean
2005 U.S Nationals winner- Michelle Kwan clean
2006 U.S Nationals winner- Kwan absent, Cohen not clean
2007 U.S Nationals winner- Kwan absent, Meissner not clean

As you can see every World event winner since 1999 went completely clean, except for Irina in the 2005 Worlds short program, but she came back with a completely clean long. Every U.S Nationals that Kwan was in since 2002 was won by a clean short and clean long program. As you can also see Sasha NEVER did clean competitions, in fact never did a clean long program, in any of those events. Pretty hard to win big events in an era were everyone who wins them did so with a clean competition, when you fail every single time to put together a clean competition, or even a clean long program ever.

Mental Toughness

It's about mental toughness and she didn't have it. You could see it on her face. Michelle had it and I think Zhang, Kim and Asada have it. It is not a common quality. But the very best have it. It means fighting for a jump, not losing concentration, going for the triple-triple. Michelle would get a look on her face that was tough, tough, tough. She wasn't going down. It also means hanging onto the rest of the performance when you make a mistake. I think Kimmie Meissner has that quality too. Sarah and Tara had it as well.

slutskayafan21 said:

Cohen's failure to win big events should not just be put down to quality of competition:

2002 Olympics- fell in long, Hughes who was trailing her after the short wins gold....

...2006 Olympics- fell twice in long....

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That's what I am saying. Sasha was the very model of consistency. You knew exactly what to expect in every performance.

If she had skated clean sometimes and sometimes not, then we could raise questions about mental toughness, desire to win, etc. As it is, IMHO she consistently skated up to the level of her talent. She was just not quite as talented as the great champions of her era. If she had been, she wouldn't have fallen so much. (JMO.)

Mathman said:

That's what I am saying. Sasha was the very model of consistency. You knew exactly what to expect in every performance.

If she had skated clean sometimes and sometimes not, then we could raise questions about mental toughness, desire to win, etc. As it is, IMHO she consistently skated up to the level of her talent. She was just not quite as talented as the great champions of her era. If she had been, she wouldn't have fallen so much. (JMO.)

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OK I see what you are saying in this case. Good point.

I think, as much as I LOVE Cohen and as much as shes my all time favorite, the girls motivations changed. At first, it was motivation to be at the top of a sport that she loved, and lived for. By the end of her career, it came off as she simply had motivation to win just to say she won.

Either way, her skating sends a feeling that no other singles ladies skater has sent, for me atleast. Almost comfortability, and for that reason she's my favorite, over Alissa Czisny. I don't base my favorites on results; I base mine on feelings and emotions.