Has the Olympics lost its cachet?

Olympics

maxell -

I think that last post was rather unfair... who says I was even THINKING about michelle. In fact, I wasn't....
so please spare all posters from unecessary grudges. :|

I was merely referring to a comment made by another poster about being a consistent champion over someone who can win when he/she gears up for a particular event... I was actually thinking of skaters who have won major events straight through - like Katarina Witt for example... Katarina putt her skating together (mentally and physically) through her nationals, europeans, AND the olympics.... a completely consistent year at major events.... there hasn't been a skater since Kristi that has done this. So "forgive" me if I wasn't being clear in my first post.

Since you want to talk about michelle, here's what I think -
I do tend to think that some people (not necessarily anyone here but maybe) now place less emphasis on the importance of the olympic gold medal simply because she hasn't won it. they are free to do so if that's how they feel. I on the other hand believe that the olympics is something important in that to be able to come through when it is absolutely necessary is an outstanding thing. It shows a lot of guts and trust in yourself and your abilities. I believe that if a skater is truly truly that gifted, it will ultimately show when it is needed because an olympic champion is that good. Some may say that Sarah or Tara got lucky - I disagree. Skaters train programs everyday and for the most part skate them cleanly 85% of the time. So Tara and Sarah did what they knew how to do. It's as simple as that. They did their job.
Now granted we all have our off days.... and maybe for some their one shot at the olympics is just that (look at Debi Thomas). But I tend to wonder about people like Kurt Browning and Michelle Kwan (since you brought it up) as far as their reputations versus what they display at the crucial moment - especially when they have been to the olympics more than once. Perhaps they have a mental block with that particular competition - I don't know and I won't pretend to know. To me, it seems easier when you know you have multiple shots at an event like nationals and worlds that occur ever year. the olympics however is something that comes along only once every four years.... it is rarer and this is what makes it so coveted a prize for athletes.
it's almost akin to the saying that there are practice skaters and competition skaters. A practice skater is flawless and spectacular on practice ice, but she has trouble putting it together when it counts at the competition (see Tonia Kwiatkowski's early years at nationals). A competition skater is one that may not be much to look at in practice but when the judges are there and the music starts, something inside explodes and they are spectacular.
Some people can turn it one when it counts (counts = important to the athlete), and others have trouble with it. This isn't to say that the skater in question (no matter who it may be) isn't a wonderful skater, a great skater..... but there seems to be something missing when after winning 4+ world championships he/she cannot pull it off at the olympics despite TWO chances at it. To me, and to more that are willing to admit it, it leaves something to be desired.

So maxell, for you to say that I dislike michelle is untrue. I've said this a million times but some people still don't believe me. Just because I don't necessarily say great things about a skater doesn't mean that I actually "dislike" him/her. In fact, I've complimented michelle on many occasions on her artistry and programs.
but some (yourself included) choose to ignore those parts and only concentrate on things that I may say that anger you personally. I can't control that. All I can comment on is the skating and the topic at hand. I hope you will in the future as well.
Thanks.

Re: Olympics

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think that last post was rather unfair... who says I was even THINKING about michelle. In fact, I wasn't....[/quote]

Nice try.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Since you want to talk about michelle, here's what I think - I do tend to think that some people (not necessarily anyone here but maybe) now place less emphasis on the importance of the olympic gold medal simply because she hasn't won it. they are free to do so if that's how they feel. [/quote]

Thanks for being so magnanimous. Actually, I didn't want to talk about Michelle, but you like to throw in snarks under the radar, so I simply had to comment. I hadn't posted anything in this thread because I'm rather ambivelant about the Olympics. Obscure sports get their time in the spotlight, but after that no one hears about them for another 4 years. Remember Vonetta Flowers? First African-American woman to win a gold medal at the winter Olys (she was in the women's bobsled). Great moment in sports history, but did she get the same monetary rewards that Sarah Hughes did? Of course not. She didn't even win the dinky ESPY award for best Olympic moment. So obviously winning the Olympic gold medal isn't everything. It just depends on what sport you compete in, right?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Some may say that Sarah or Tara got lucky - I disagree. Skaters train programs everyday and for the most part skate them cleanly 85% of the time. So Tara and Sarah did what they knew how to do. It's as simple as that. They did their job. [/quote]

I will agree that Tara and Sarah did what they knew how to do. So did Michelle and Irina and Yoshie and Fumie and Viktoria and all the other skaters that competed. Tara and Michelle both skated clean in 98 so the gold could have gone either way. It went to Tara.

Sarah, on the other hand, skated before Michelle or Irina so she was more free to pull out all the stops. She did and it worked for her in spades. But it's also fact that she needed help to get where she did, and had Michelle and Irina not faltered, there would be a different gold medalist. But that horse has been beaten, drawn, quartered, and cremated.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This isn't to say that the skater in question (no matter who it may be) isn't a wonderful skater, a great skater..... but there seems to be something missing when after winning 4+ world championships he/she cannot pull it off at the olympics despite TWO chances at it. To me, and to more that are willing to admit it, it leaves something to be desired.[/quote]

No, that's exactly what you're saying. That because certain skaters couldn't get the Olympic gold, that they obviously aren't as good as people make them out to be. If so, you owe a huge apology to fans of Janet Lynn, Linda Fratienne, Tiffany Chin, Elvis Stojko, Kurt Browning, Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Christopher Bowman, Debi Thomas, Roz Sumners, etc. I'd say they put a pretty big dent on the sport without that damned Olympic gold medal. And those are just the skaters off the top of my head.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So maxell, for you to say that I dislike michelle is untrue. I've said this a million times but some people still don't believe me. Just because I don't necessarily say great things about a skater doesn't mean that I actually "dislike" him/her. In fact, I've complimented michelle on many occasions on her artistry and programs. [/quote]

Could you direct me to those? At least, those threads where you didn't post a backhanded compliment? And the reason people don't believe you, if you do like Michelle's skating at all, is because of junk like this. If you don't like the skating, just come out and say it and stop trying to "hide" little comments in between all the other 4 page paragraphs. I do hope you'll work on that.

Re: Olympics

The Olympics is the way that casual figure skating fans are separated from passionate figure skating fans.

Conversation with person just met:
Me:
"I enjoy horseback riding and figure skating".

Person: "Oh, figure skating, I just loved watching it during the last Olympics, but wasn't that a shame about those two couples who tied for the gold because of cheating? What were their names?

Me: <Pronounce B&S names without flinching>
"Well, you know the skaters weren't cheating, right? They were just skating their best."

Person: "Well, I can't wait for the next Olympics to see more figure skating..."

Me: "Did you know that there are actually other major competitions and that the skating is just as good?"

Person: Eyes glaze over... obviously just a casual fan.

See?

Linny

Re: Has the Olympics lost its cachet?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Now granted we all have our off days.... and maybe for some their one shot at the olympics is just that (look at Debi Thomas). But I tend to wonder about people like Kurt Browning and Michelle Kwan (since you brought it up) as far as their reputations versus what they display at the crucial moment - especially when they have been to the olympics more than once. Perhaps they have a mental block with that particular competition - I don't know and I won't pretend to know. To me, it seems easier when you know you have multiple shots at an event like nationals and worlds that occur ever year. the olympics however is something that comes along only once every four years.... it is rarer and this is what makes it so coveted a prize for athletes. [/quote]


Crucial moment, engrsktr? I suppose that winning 4 (Kurt) and 5 (Michelle) world championships aren't considered "crucial moments" in your book. I want to see you go out, year after year, competition after competition, and compete and win before you say it's easier to win when you have "multiple shots" at an event. And then maybe you should talk to those athletes who DON'T have a snowball's chance in Hades of winning any of the 3 medals (there are 3 winners, ya know) and ask them what they think of OGM. Gee, bet they'd tell you they were just happy to be Olympians. That was their goal from the beginning.

Our athletes are pressured to WIN. That isn't what the Olympics was started for. And it shouldn't be about that either. It should be about the best in the world coming to compete without political involvement or outside inteference. But it's a sham now. Countries cry "foul" (some for good reason) and declare they won't participate again.

When do you become proud of someone JUST representing your country whether they win or not? Shoot, I was proud of Sasha. I was proud of ALL of them. It has to be tough to skate for those who weren't all over the news and KNOW in your heart that you stand no chance of winning.

And for your information, Michelle WON silver and bronze medals, Debi WON bronze, Nancy WON silver. They didn't lose after all, did they?

I’d say yes and no

I think it just really depends on who wins and what they do after the win. I personally see it as a nice 15 minutes of fame for certain athletes who aren’t necessarily the best of their field. It just seems the last few Olympics have turned out that way.

Re: Has the Olympics lost its cachet?

I think that engrsktr makes valid points. The Olympics only happen every 4 years which means that there are fewer Oly champs than World or National champs - it's a smaller and more selective club. The exclusivity in some sense makes it elite. The result of this is that the Oly gold is the pinnacle - the award towards which athletes strive. I'm not saying there isn't one out there, but I doubt there are many elite atheletes who are not highly competitive. That's just the nature of athletes - and I know plenty of not-even-close-to-elite athletes who are extremely competitive. Competitive people want the ultimate prize ... and I think that ultimate prize is still the Oly gold medal.

I don't say this to diminish the achievements of any other athlete. I just think it is the nature of competitive people to strive to win. I also think there are athletes out there than know that they don't have a real shot at winning, and their approach is a bit different. I'd bet that they want to be able to say that they skated as well as they did - to know that they put it all out there - and would be content with that. There has to be some disappointment when a true contender walks away with anything less than the top prize. That being said, I don't care if either Michelle or Kurt has an Oly gold (although, I'd like them to), I will always be fans of both.

Re: Has the Olympics lost its cachet?

Linny,
Another difference between a passionate skating fan than a casual fan. The passionate fan will scedule vacation time to stay home and watch.. Guility

Olympics

The only reason I am even replying to maxell's post is because I feel it IS unfair for a comment such as that to have been made in the first place... it was off the subject and argumentative (and discredits what I say and how I am) and I'm surprised it hasn't been "edited" or removed by the moderator....

That being said, I would like to know how giving one's opinion on a subject counts as "snarking" , as maxell so eloquently put it. (even though the person I am accused of snarking wasn't even mentioned in the first post)

"I hadn't posted anything in this thread because I'm rather ambivelant about the Olympics"

Then why didn't you post in the first place? Were you just trying to be rude?

"Sarah, on the other hand, skated before Michelle or Irina so she was more free to pull out all the stops"

Oh I see.... so if you skate early in the group you can do your program as planned and go all out and the judges won't mark you down because you are among the first to skate of the leaders? Isn't it the other way around? Don't they reward more later in the group? Don't the skaters later in the group have the advantage because they know how the other skaters skated??? Or am I just "snarking" again? I don't know....


"That because certain skaters couldn't get the Olympic gold, that they obviously aren't as good as people make them out to be"

Well that all depends on what the skater's reputation is to begin with. Kurt Browning for example.... 4 time world champion... obviously he is a great skater and on 4 occasion proved himself to be the best in the world.... (or should we say the best those days???? I guess that depends on how important you consider world championships...)
It just seems strange to me that he couldn't put it together to win an Olympic medal of ANY color out of two tries..... that's my opinion. No snarking involved. AS a disclaimer let me say that I really enjoy watching Kurt's skating.... his footwork is second to none.
I feel the same way about michelle.... 5 world championships and yet even though she was the odds on favorite to win (she was a 3 time world champion by the time of the SLC games), she couldn't pull it off.... it just is strange to me.... no snarking involved.

"If so, you owe a huge apology to fans of Janet Lynn, Linda Fratienne, Tiffany Chin, Elvis Stojko, Kurt Browning, Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Christopher Bowman, Debi Thomas, Roz Sumners, etc. I'd say they put a pretty big dent on the sport without that damned Olympic gold medal. And those are just the skaters off the top of my head."


First I don't owe anyone an apology.
Second, it's interesting that of the entire list you have mentioned (off the top of your head) that only three of them are multiple world champions... Sure the others you mention like Linda and Debi and Janet were exceptional for the sport, but they didn't go into the Olympics as 3 time world champions.... So expectations for them are not the same as for skaters like Michelle and Kurt and perhaps Elvis. By winning so many world championships, those skaters on their own merit, augmented fans' expectations of them and their own expectations of THEMSELVES. If you don't think so, then tell me why Kurt came back into eligible skating and went to the games.... tell me why michelle cried after the games in 98.... she skated her best and she didn't win.... like tharrtell said, athletes of that caliber are competitive and want to win - especially something as elusive as the Olympic gold medal.

"At least, those threads where you didn't post a backhanded compliment"

By backhanded do you mean saying something that her fans might not necessarily want to hear?? I don't call that backhanding.... it's called giving an opinion.... perhaps unpopular with a certain faction.... but definitely not "snarking" or bashing... For example, I think michelle has wonderfully choreographed programs.... but I also think that her jump repertoire is repetitve and lackluster.... what's so harmful in that comment.... (I've made both in the past)....


"And the reason people don't believe you, if you do like Michelle's skating at all, is because of junk like this. If you don't like the skating, just come out and say it and stop trying to "hide" little comments in between all the other 4 page paragraphs. I do hope you'll work on that."

So my opinions are junk.... and you see snarking between each 4 page paragraph... when did I become Rgirl (no offense intended)...
So you want me to just come right out and say that I don't like michelle's skating...? Sorry I can't do that...
there are aspects that I like and some that I don't as I've stated above....and I'm not hiding my comments... if you read above you'll see I come right out and say "I like.... and I don't like... " in my backhanded compliment.... don't be rude to me just because I vocalize those things I don't like as well as the things I DO like....

By the way, I'm sure Vonetta will ALWAYS cherish her gold medal.... no matter whether anyone else thinks it's important or not.... no matter how much monetary compensation she may or may not have received... because it's not about the money... it's about proving to yourself you can do the job when you need and want to do it. And like i stated in my first post (if you had bothered to read it instead of skim it for references to michelle), to the athletes, the Olympics matter A LOT.
So to Vonetta, as far as sport is concerned, I'm sure the gold IS everything in her sport and in her mind.......

Re: Has the Olympics lost its cachet?

I think that engrsktr makes valid points. The Olympics only happen every 4 years which means that there are fewer Oly champs than World or National champs - it's a smaller and more selective club. The exclusivity in some sense makes it elite. The result of this is that the Oly gold is the pinnacle - the award towards which athletes strive>>

I would agree with that except that certain sports - such as gymnastics and figure skating - do not traditionally favor longevity. With a few rare exceptions, there is a small window of winning opportunities for skaters and gymnasts at the Olympics. So timing is a factor that can work for or against an athlete. Let's face it folks, if the Winter Olympics hadn't switched in 1994, and remained in place in 1996, I am fairly confident that neither Tara or Oksana would be Olympic champions today. (But then I don't think Michelle would have been the OGM based on her 96 Worlds win - depends on whether Chen Lu would have risen higher to the challenge or crumbled under nationalistic Olympic pressure. But I digress).

Since Oksana hit that unbelieveably growth spurt in 95-96, and never was able to do any real triple combos, I doubt she would have won in "96" Games. Nancy Kerrigan would not have been there (she went on the record in 1992 that the only reason she was staying in until 1994 was that it was only two years away). And of course Tara Lipinski would not have won based on her lack of any international experience in 96. She may have made the team though unless Tonya Harding (remember this is assuming that the knee whack never would have occurred) and Nicole Bobek - along with Michelle made up the team. So with 96 not being a possibility for Lipinski, "2000" Olympics would definitely have been out of the question since her hip injury almost immediately impacted her ability to be a top eligible skater after the 98 Games. She made no secret that she was in pain at the 98 Games. Of course if she hadn't practiced so many 3/3 combos, she might have held on until 2000. But given her notorious drive to practice combos endless without perhaps realizing what it was doing to her body, I still maintain she wouldn't have made it to become "2000" OGM.

I'm not saying that Oksana and Tara shouldn't be considered worthy of being in a selective club. But timing worked in their favor, and against others IMHO. I can cite examples in gymnastics too, but I don't know how many people here follow gymnastics.

Re: Has the Olympics lost its cachet?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Oh I see.... so if you skate early in the group you can do your program as planned and go all out and the judges won't mark you down because you are among the first to skate of the leaders? Isn't it the other way around? Don't they reward more later in the group? Don't the skaters later in the group have the advantage because they know how the other skaters skated??? Or am I just "snarking" again? I don't know....[/quote]

I'm going out on a limb here but I think Maxell may have been saying that Sarah had nothing to lose being in the position she was in and was not feeling any pressure from Michelle or Irina, since she was skating before them, so she could go all out.

Re: Has the Olympics lost its cachet?

Sandee,

ITA about the importance of timing in winning the OGM in both FS and gymnastics. In these sports there typically seems to be a quick ascent, short peak, and fast descent from the elite ranks - all somewhat related to the timing of the development of hips! Both FS and gymnastics are increasing the age for international competition - slowly - which I think will lead towards longevity and maybe less 'luck' involved in the winning of these events. Sarah's a good example of this, IMO. She grew this year. No matter how much she trains, will she be able to get those triple triples back? or did the Olympics fall at the perfect time for her? This isn't to discredit her accomplishment - which was great - but it is a legit question, IMO. Older, more mature ladies might lead to the decrease in the technical ability, but would increase the artistry and make the competition less about timing. That's okay in my book.

Olympics

Realistic - why are you so <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/mad.gif" />???

"I want to see you go out, year after year, competition after competition, and compete and win before you say it's easier to win when you have "multiple shots" at an event."

didn't you just prove my point...? "year after year... competition after competition"..... ???
the more chances you have to succeed at something, the more likely you are to accomplish it.... is it not true?
the olympics are much more rare than world championships which occur each year... I never said winning a world championship was easy... but wouldn't you feel better knowing you could get another chance one year from now rather than 4 years from now (you may not even be around)???
Wouldn't that release some pressure????
it's like going to practice everyday.... you are relaxed because you know if you have a bad day one day that you have another skate the next day to fix any problems... and then a competition comes around and you know you only have one chance to do the job...
That's all I was saying...

"And then maybe you should talk to those athletes who DON'T have a snowball's chance in Hades of winning any of the 3 medals (there are 3 winners, ya know) and ask them what they think of OGM. Gee, bet they'd tell you they were just happy to be Olympians. That was their goal from the beginning."

you're forgetting something here.... like I said in a previous post, skaters like michelle and kurt who have won more than lost, tend to be given a different set of standards than those who have less accomplishments....
these standards are set by fans AND themselves....ask yourself, as a 3time world champion wouldn't you have aspirations of WINNING the gold medal knowing that you've been the best in the world on 3 occasions???
Most skaters out there know it's not possible to win, so they go in with different expectations.... for them I'm sure they are just glad to be there..... and even for skaters like kurt and michelle, it's not TOTALLY about the gold medal but I'd say about 90% of it is....


"Our athletes are pressured to WIN"

No, our athletes pressure THEMSELVES to win.... if you are that competitive, you put more pressure on yourself than anyone outside ever could. and it then becomes a game of beating oneself and the pressure you alone have created. and to be an elite athlete that pressure, to a certain extent, is a necessity.
No the Olympics weren't meant to be about winners and be about "win win win" all the time... and they still aren't.... not for most of the athletes.... those athletes at the top, however, do have winning as a goal... and are disappointed when they don't do so..... even if they get a medal of another color. Of course they still appreciate the olympic experience, so it's not TOTALLY about the medal or results. But like every contest, only one person can win (tie excluded).... so there is only one winner... but that doesn't mean those who come in 2nd and 3rd are necessarily losers.... no, it means they just didn't win.... it is up to the athlete to determine how they want to view the result....

"It has to be tough to skate for those who weren't all over the news and KNOW in your heart that you stand no chance of winning."

It's not tough for those skaters to skate out there even if they think they have no chance.... they are competitors... if they couldn't handle not being #1, then they wouldn't be competing.. they would have stopped long ago..... they like going out there to skate no matter where that puts them because they set a different set of expectations for themselves....

"And for your information, Michelle WON silver and bronze medals, Debi WON bronze, Nancy WON silver. They didn't lose after all, did they?"

And for YOUR information, I didn't say anyone LOST anything.... you may have thought that in YOUR head but I never said that....
However, if you are Debi (since you brought it up) and you go in wanting the gold medal, you will be upset like Debi was when you don't
to Debi, she lost... to Katarina, Debi LOST(she said it in an interview).... Debi doesn't even like the whole experience that she had at the olympics (self admittedly- she is not consoled with the bronze).... so it all depends on what the athlete is thinking when they go in.....

Re: Olympics

*sigh*

I think this thread has lost it's cachet. And it was going so well there for a while...

Mathman

Re: Olympics

Oh, all right. By popular demand (i.e., IceCastles ) I am reopening this thread. After a good night's sleep I got over being mad. I hope you all did, too. One big happy.

Mathman

Re: Olympics

<span style="color:maroon;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:small;">I thought you were justified in locking it and I'm surprised you unlocked it. Once a thread becomes uncivil, it's time to say goodbye to it.</span>

Re: Olympics

I agree Mathman. that is why I opened the other thread so that they can rethink the Olys in a more civilized way.

Joe

Re: Olympics

I think the figure skating has lost alot of respect in the olympics, I feel the best skate of the night did win the last olympics, but not the best skaters won, but thats what it is all about, who skates the best that night, I would call them flukes.

Re: Olympics

mathman, even though I felt bad that you closed the thread before I had a chance to respond to someone dissecting my post sentence by sentence, I understood why you did it.

And engrsktr, I disagree with you in entirety. And that's the end of my response on this issue since I have no desire to get myself more aggravated over someone taking a post apart-which then lends itself to misinterpretation.

So, I bow out gracefully.:rollin:

Re: Olympics

I'm with realistic. And I'm not in the slightest sorry for what I said, although some feel it was "uncivilized". Whatever.

Better to say what you really feel.

Re: Has the Olympics lost its cachet?

It's funny how in only 4 posts I could cause an incident But Thanks, mathman. I do agree it had gotten out of hand and I was sorry because it was a good topic gone bad and needed to be closed, at least for a while. So, sorry for any confusion about that.