Controversial Olympic Competitons

Ptichka · May 13, 2008

mycelticblessing said:
What did Scott Hamilton do? Whine about it on TV?

Actually, he did not whine about it at all. Quite the opposite, he immediately started explaining why this was the right decision - such as showing how Dmitriev came to a full stop after throw jumps, whereas Grinkov hardly lost speed. The argument was that Scott was invested in G&G - since they were in SoI, he wanted them to win and thus wasn't objective. Personally, I take a middle ground on this - I don't think it was a matter of "if-they-win-it's-better-for-SoI", but that as a personal friend of Katya and Sergei he just liked them better than M&D, and his commentary couldn't help but reflect that.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 13, 2008

cassieandcheetah said:
My question is, if Gordeeva/Grinkov win over Dmitriev/Mischtenook was not controversial, why was the win for Berezhanaya/.Sikarulidze? I say shame on the North American media and Scott Hamilton.

I think it was a matter of the old 'skate clean' should win. Same rationale for Lipinsky. She skated clean.

No one has ever said that S/P were a better Pairs team than B/S. It had to do with the standard 'clean skate', and that's what S/P did THAT night.

The best team (skater) doesn't always win, but continues to be the best without the gold medal. But then again, S/P did remain on the gold standard as per their Professional career.

Joe

Winnipeg · May 13, 2008

fairly4 said:
since you went by judging 6 to 3 yes. but they didn't judge fair. in that competition.
the us was pushing tara by being the youngest.

I thought the US judge went in favour of Kwan and NOT Tara. I always had the impression that US preferred Kwan overall and not Tara??

Buttercup said:
She seriously said that? Well, I guess that would be one way of presenting it. Points for originality! Does this mean that Mme. La Gougne and Speedy had the whole thing planned in advance?

Wow, what a strange comment to have made after cheating at an international competition - she should have been banned from judging forever. What an ego.............does she ever admit she was wrong or made a mistake

Joesitz said:
Jaana -
Did you see the recent PBS program regarding the German female swimmers who all won gold, and all took experimental steroids? Sad, these ladies did not even know (nor did the scientists) what the long term results would bring. One actually turned into a man; a few developed cancer, all had hair in places only a man can have, one committed suicide. They won the gold medals but at what price.

Check out the Swimming event for women in the Montreal Olympics. It was in the 70s I believe. At first it's shocking, then sad.

Joe

Wow, I never heard of this. It truly is sad & inhumane............did no-one notice at the time or test them for steroid use? Can they at least sue?

Winnipeg · May 13, 2008

antmanb said:
The USFSA banned Tonya for life not the ISU. The ISU did ban for life Sally Stapleford and (argh i forget his name now...someone help me) for blowing the whistle on Le Gougne and informing the ISU immediately of her confession. The whistelblowers get banned for life for having integrity. The cheaters get a three year ban. That is the way of the ISU, and then people are surprised that figure skating is a corrupt sport.

Ant

I didn't realize that - what a sham. The judge should have been banned for life and the WB hailed as a preson with integrity..................why weren't the other skating federations outraged?

Winnipeg · May 13, 2008

Ptichka said:
Actually, he did not whine about it at all.

I don't recall his comments after 1994 Pairs but DO recall his comments after 2002................he clearly thought SP should have won. I remember him saying before their last throw.....land this throw and the gold medal is theirs (said in his usual enthusiastic manner).

On the memorial tape of 2002, he narrates and lists out all the parties who thought that S and P wuz robbed...................

Buttercup · May 13, 2008

Winnipeg said:
I didn't realize that - what a sham. The judge should have been banned for life and the WB hailed as a preson with integrity..................why weren't the other skating federations outraged?

Did you actually read the comments before posting this? Because there's no way you can claim she was stripped of her eligibility for being a whistleblower. Here's what I wrote in response to Antman's post:

Sally Stapleford was banned for trying to set up a rival skating association (World Skating Federation), which was obviously something the ISU was unhappy about. She was very visible in working to establish the WSF and lost her eligibility three years after SLC (go here http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-164742-181960-87292-0-file,00.pdf for the ISU decision on the matter). She and several of the other WSF founders who were ruled ineligible then took their case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). This would be the court of last appeal for such a case (Floyd Landis's final appeal re the 2006 Tour de France is now in CAS proceedings). CAS dismissed the appeal in 2006 and upheld the ISU's decision.

Hard to feel outrage about someone who works to undermine your federation being banned. That's not to say that La Gougne didn't deserve a severe penalty for her actions.

jcoates · May 13, 2008

Sorry I'm so late to the party. Work has been crazy. Here are my thoughts.

1. I forget how wrote it, but when Trixi Schuba won in 1972, the figures and LP were both worth 50% (not sure which broke ties, probable LP). That happened after the 68 season when the split was 60/40. After 72, the SP was created to add more free skating segments to competitions and to make them more TV friendly. The figures/SP/LP split was then 30/20/50 and remained so until after the 88 season when it changed to 20/30/50. Figures were then dropped after 1990 Worlds. Incidentally, huge leads in figures were also the main reasons why the two Olympic champs before Schuba (Dijkstra and Fleming) were able to win as well. Peggy's LP was far below her usual standard but did not hurt her b/c her lead was insurmountable.

2. One controversial ice dancing result I have not seen mentioned here yet was the 1980 Ice Dance gold medal. Linichuk and Karponosov won over Regoczy and Sallay (HUN) in close contest. The silver medalists were much more popular with skating fans and the result was flipped at Worlds a few weeks later.

3. In the bronze debate from the 1984 ice dance event, the judge who made the difference (Cia Bordogna from Italy) deducted B/S 0.1 b/c their Scheherazade program did not have a definite rhythm. Bolero on the other hand, while an unusual choice with not major tempo changes, did at least have a definite rhythm repeated throughout the piece, which was the core of the criteria for ice dance music at the time. Ironically, back then, the tiebreaker in the case of ties was the TM mark and not AI.

3. The 1994 games were certainly filled with at least hard to understand results to the casual observer. In ice dance, if you looked strictly at what was done on the ice, I can't see T/D finishing lower than 2nd. (1st is debatable b/c while not my cup of tea, G/P’s FD was by far the hardest of the event) Their problem was their 3rd place in compulsories AND recyclying several steps from Mack and Mabel and Barnum into their FD. While brilliantly entertaining, in terms of content it was a bit a greatest hits program. I don't have the link, but the British commentator at Europeans noted the same thing, and that was before they added even more recylcled steps. I think the Euros version would have placed them higher, but was less entertaining.

The men's event really should not have been close at all. Urmanov did have a poor flip but was otherwise clean for the standard of that time; but Stojko also popped an Axel and had pretty poor spin positions and lots of two foot skating. I think Scott Hamilton just never liked Urmanov and his opinion affected his commentary and US perception.

In the ladies event, correct me if I'm wrong but I think the reasons Hoffman was singled out was not only b/c Germany was thought to be a potential wild card on the panel, but also b/c I think he was one of two judges who flipped from the SP (a 6/3 decision) to LP (5/4). He also had them tied on his score card, with AI breaking the tie in Baiul's favor. I believe Le Gougne did something similar in SLC.

I never thought the pairs result in 94 was all that controversial. M/D had been pretty shaky all week in practice anyway and had particular trouble with their SP lift. They pulled it off in the competition, but I think the judges' perception of them may have been hurt as a result. All of G/G's errors were very minor and covered up pretty well. Plus their basics (speed, line, unison, flow) were still the gold standard and much better than M/D.

4. While the judging in the 1998 dance event, was fishy, the result was correct at the podium level. I always thought the real controversy was lower down the totem pole where Punsalan and Swallow finished a disappointing 7th behind Lobacheva/Averbukh and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio.

5. I agree with all posters who have laid the blame for the scope of the SLC pairs controversy at NBC's feet. If you recall, or look up on youtube, Sandra Bezic said right after S/P's marks came up, "I'm embarrassed for our sport right now." That knee jerk statement went a long way toward biasing the audience. NBC had put a lot of money into hyping S/P and the fact that they had a mini-winning streak against B/S (2001 Worlds and 2001/2002 GPF). They were the perfect made for TV couple ready to break the Russian winning streak and anything less than a win would be analyzed to death. Plus the warm-up collision had just happened and S/P and skated a wonderful, romantic and clean program despite it. Bezic did say later in the broadcast that B/S's LP was "harder" but the damage was already done. She never said why it was more difficult or why that should count in the face of minor landing edge problems. (If I recall, later analysis if the event also called David’s hand placement on Jamie’s waist into question during the combination lift and being outside the rules) The analysis of the result was too oversimplified and then turned into the media circus that followed. Of course it never helps that 90% of sports writers who cover skating at Olympics know nothing about it and get lots of their reporting wrong under the best of circumstances. Once the confession of collusion was made, all the ingredients were in place for a ratings bonanza which was great for NBC in the short term, but did major harm to skating in the long run.

Mathman · May 13, 2008

To me, the most telling response of the ISU was the immediate institution of the Interim Judging System. This was plain old 6.0 judging, but the scores would be reported anonymously. .

Voila! -- no more bloc judging conspiracy theories because no one knew for sure which judges gave which marks.

About the role of Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezik -- they are hired to give their opinions on TV. They did. So what? It's up to the ISU not to foul it's own nest, never mind what over-enthusiastic and perhaps silly television announcers say.

gkelly · May 13, 2008

jcoates said:
Incidentally, huge leads in figures were also the main reasons why the two Olympic champs before Schuba (Dijkstra and Fleming) were able to win as well. Peggy's LP was far below her usual standard but did not hurt her b/c her lead was insurmountable.

They did both win the freeskating, though, pretty convincingly (eight 1sts for the freeskate). See http://winter-olympic-memories.com/

A better example would probably be Jeanette Altwegg, who was 4th in freeskating and won on the strength of figures.

The men's event really should not have been close at all. Urmanov did have a poor flip but was otherwise clean for the standard of that time; but Stojko also popped an Axel and had pretty poor spin positions and lots of two foot skating.

Well, Urmanov also had some spin problems in the LP. I think it was basic skating, quality of jumps, and several aspects of the second mark that gave it to him.

Petrenko had one first-place ordinal, and Candeloro also had one. Browning had a lot of seconds. If it had just been the eventual top 6 in the final group instead of Boitano, Petrenko, and Browning all skating earlier because of short program problems, the ordinals would probably have been even more mixed up than they were. Which would probably not have been good news for Stojko.

I think Scott Hamilton just never liked Urmanov and his opinion affected his commentary and US perception.

Absolutely.

Buttercup · May 13, 2008

Mathman said:
About the role of Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezik -- they are hired to give their opinions on TV. They did. So what? It's up to the ISU not to foul it's own nest, never mind what over-enthusiastic and perhaps silly television announcers say.

I wouldn't blame them exclusively, but they certainly didn't help the situation (neither, for that matter, did Christine Brennan at USA Today and a whole bunch of other journalists and commentators). Once La Gougne's actions were revealed, I don't see what choice the IOC and ISU had, but the way the US media handled it was not an example of great journalism.

Anouncers' opinions, as given, influenced public opinion a great deal, and, as the AP reported at the time:

Cinquanta acknowledged that "public opinion helped a great deal" in influencing the ISU's action. "That's a good thing," he added.

The full story is here http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter02/figure/news?id=1333280 - read the whole thing to find out what President Bush's thoughts on the matter were, and to get the reaction of the Russian deputy PM at the time.

There are links to other related stories and columns on that page - some are pretty interesting to read six years later.

Mafke · May 13, 2008

jcoates said:
1. I forget how wrote it, but when Trixi Schuba won in 1972, the figures and LP were both worth 50% (not sure which broke ties, probable LP). ----Figures were then dropped after 1990 Worlds. Incidentally, huge leads in figures were also the main reasons why the two Olympic champs before Schuba (Dijkstra and Fleming) were able to win as well. Peggy's LP was far below her usual standard but did not hurt her b/c her lead was insurmountable.

2. One controversial ice dancing result I have not seen mentioned here yet was the 1980 Ice Dance gold medal. Linichuk and Karponosov won over Regoczy and Sallay (HUN)

In the ladies event, correct me if I'm wrong but I think the reasons Hoffman was singled out was not only b/c Germany was thought to be a potential wild card on the panel, but also b/c I think he was one of two judges who flipped from the SP (a 6/3 decision) to LP (5/4).

5. I agree with all posters who have laid the blame for the scope of the SLC pairs controversy at NBC's feet.

1. There was practically no need for a tie-breaker because things were done on a total point basis, ties I think were even rarer than now. Also the way figures were scored made them worth more than the 50 % they were on paper.
Schuba was something like 120 points ahead of the second place finisher in figures (Julie Lynn Holmes) and her seventh place freeskate was only about 84 points behind Lynn who won that section. That problem lingered on until factored placements in 1981. And I think until Schuba, more often than not if the skater who won figures did a halfway credible job in the freeskate (almost more like an exhibition) they would win that too. Hamill was the very first OGM who didn't win figures. I don't know how it played out in worlds.

2. Yeah (useless info: I was just in Hungary and saw billboards of Regoczy advertising something, the olympics were mentioned in the ad but she was identified as former world champ). I don't really recall anybody much much liking L&K then or now. I didn't know much about ice dance then (not that i do now) and liked the hungarians (and I think the other Russian couple better).

I might be having a senior moment (those are cropping up more and more often now) but my pet theory for why Hoffmann caught so much crap was that IIRC he was at the end of the panel and his marks were called last (and showed up on printouts last). As much as I disagreed with the overall result (very), I've never doubted that Hoffmann was judging it as he saw it. I've never heard or read anything but high praise of him as a competitor and person.

5. Yeah. B&S over S&P was not a popular decision but it's defendable (unlike the second gold medal). In terms of skating merits Lysacek over Weir at 08 nationals or Nakano in 4th place at worlds are far worse decisions. But that's the danger of skating being too dependent on olympic tv coverage - they completely reworked the sport to make it as tv friendly as possible and the people controlling the tv threw skating under the bus for some cheap sensationalism.

Mathman · May 13, 2008

Buttercup said:
The full story is here http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter...ews?id=1333280 - read the whole thing to find out what President Bush's thoughts on the matter were, and to get the reaction of the Russian deputy PM at the time.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. So...did they play the Russian national anthem first, or Canada's? :laugh:

Cinquanta acknowledged that "public opinion helped a great deal" in influencing the ISU's action. "That's a good thing," he added.

Mr. Cinquanta must have bit his tongue on that last part!

jcoates · May 13, 2008

Mathman said:
About the role of Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezik -- they are hired to give their opinions on TV. They did. So what? It's up to the ISU not to foul it's own nest, never mind what over-enthusiastic and perhaps silly television announcers say.

Yes, they are hired, in part, to give their to give their opinions. But they are also the supposed expert analysts. It's their duty to correctly explain the how, what, and why to casual fans (the bulk of the Olympic audience) who don't get the intricacies of the sport as die-hards like us do. They should not get so caught up in expressing what they like or dislike that they forget to provide accurate details. Other english language tv analysts,often who are less famous, tend to do a better job of this by and large. Thank goodness for youtube and internet feeds.

escaflowne9282 · May 13, 2008

Mathman said:
About the role of Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezik -- they are hired to give their opinions on TV. They did. So what? It's up to the ISU not to foul it's own nest, never mind what over-enthusiastic and perhaps silly television announcers say.

Scott and Sandra were hired to educate and inform the viewers, and analyze the competition as a whole, not publicly become cheerleaders for one pair over the next ,while also making outlandish statements. It would be one thing if they had disagreed, and pointed out what they felt S&P did better and explained which judging points they did not agree upon with the panel. The problem is they just kept getting more and more histrionic; first, they were prejudging the competition(if they just skate clean..., throw triple loop... etc). After the competition, they started going on and on about S&P's "magic", then implying that all of the Russian pairs in history had won unfairly. Then Bezic began surmising that B&S must feel so guilty for getting a medal that was not deserved. Then ,Scott described how tepid the audience was to them.Then ,Bezic's "I'm embarassed for our sport" proclaimation came about as B&S were taking their bows.Finally, when audience is asked to rise for the medal ceremony,you can hear Sandra Bezic shout "No!".

I don't think I've ever seen any commentators treat skaters so disrespectfully before and IMHO , that goes beyond simply giving an opinion.That was not commentary, that was a temper tantrum and they should rightfully be taken to task for it regardless as to if one judge(or even all nine judges) admitted to being pressured a day later.

Joesitz said:
I think it was a matter of the old 'skate clean' should win. Same rationale for Lipinsky. She skated clean.
No one has ever said that S/P were a better Pairs team than B/S. It had to do with the standard 'clean skate', and that's what S/P did THAT night.

But Joe...M&D were clean that night in 1994 and it was G&G who made errors. Katia Gordeeva said in "My Sergei", that M&D got slightly more applause at the medal ceremony and that it bothered her.
Kwan and Lipinski were both clean in 1998, and while Lipinski may have been more "on fire" that night, there were still 3 judges who preferred Kwan, which means there was still some room for disagreement. I guess I'm just not convinced there ever was a "must skate clean" standard.

As to SLC, I would have given S&P the technical mark, and B&S the edge on presentation( I agreed most with the Chinese judge).I never had a strong opinion at the time as to who should have won, but it got a bit tiring to see all the hysteria and it made me dislike S&P for quite a while(though I've warmed to them and have started to like them since '06).

jcoates said:
The men's event really should not have been close at all. Urmanov did have a poor flip but was otherwise clean for the standard of that time; but Stojko also popped an Axel and had pretty poor spin positions and lots of two foot skating. I think Scott Hamilton just never liked Urmanov and his opinion affected his commentary and US perception.

I absolutely agree with this. Urmanov's style was a bit...eccentric and esoteric ,but his posture, lines, extensions, edging et al. were head and shoulders above Stoijko's,. Stoijko didn't do the first triple axel and replaced his quad with a second axel which thus lost him his technical advantage. I hated Urmanov's long program in 1994 (although I liked him in general), but he was the only one who really had all the goods, and didn't have a disastrous SP.

hockeyfan228 · May 13, 2008

gkelly said:
Many fans did prefer Mishkutionok/Dmitriev's style and thought they should have won because they made fewer obvious mistakes. But some of us could be persuaded by arguments that G&G had better basic technique in general. So not enough for mass outrage.

This was still when not every team did the same number of elements, and G/G had two more elements in their program than M/D did as well as the superiority of their lines and basic skating. (A lift, and IIRC, two death spirals to one.)

I loved M/D, but I thought Mishketienok's black tights were an unfortunately choice, because they emphasized how she neither stretched nor finished most of her movements.

Re: S&P's "magic" mentioned by escaflowne9282, that was pretty much Sonia Bianchetti's take on it as well. In her opinion, there was a "know it when you see it, no arguing about it" quality to their performance compared to B&S's. Hamilton and Bezic could have been responding to the same quality. (To many at Worlds this year, Joubert's LP had a similar quality.)

However, I heard CBC in 1998 when Bezic shrieked herself silly about B&K being wuzrobbed in the CD's, knowing that would take them out of medal contention without injury withdrawal or serious meltdowns, and I believe she was primed and ready for a "wuzrobbed" at SLC if she even perceived a slight. I don't think it's coincidental that she worked her way into a much larger media role in 2002, since, relatively, CBC is a tree falling in the forest with two hikers. For Hamilton, this quality would be exactly what he was looking for for SOI.

blue dog · May 13, 2008

This is just speculation on my part, but I think that the biggest would-be benefactor (if it had not started to "choke" the life out of skating) would have been Scott and Sandra themselves. Since Scott owned SOI, he stood to benefit by having the two gold medal-winning pairs on his show. And since Sandra choreographed for SOI, she would've been there making numbers for them. But, alas, interest in skating dwindled, and so have Scott's profits in SOI...

I don't think someone who has that much invested in who wins/loses should be judging (thank goodness) or commentating.

Mathman · May 13, 2008

jcoates said:
Yes, they are hired, in part, to give their to give their opinions. But they are also the supposed expert analysts. It's their duty to correctly explain the how, what, and why to casual fans (the bulk of the Olympic audience) who don't get the intricacies of the sport as die-hards like us do. They should not get so caught up in expressing what they like or dislike that they forget to provide accurate details...

escaflowne said:
Scott and Sandra were hired to educate and inform the viewers, and analyze the competition as a whole, not publicly become cheerleaders for one pair over the next ,while also making outlandish statements.

I agree with that.

Still...I think the question of whether Scott Hamilton is a good commentator or not is a separate issue from the ISU's responsibility to address allegations of crooked judging.

blue dog[/quote said:
This is just speculation on my part, but I think that the biggest would-be benefactor (if it had not started to "choke" the life out of skating) would have been Scott and Sandra themselves. Since Scott owned SOI, he stood to benefit by having the two gold medal-winning pairs on his show...

As I remember it, right after the Olympics Sale and Pelletier tried to organize their own tour, cashing in on all the publicity. But they overestimated the interest of the public in yesterday's news, they had problems with their managers and agents, they couldn't get it together in a timely fashion, and most of all, they priced themselves out of the game.

So they basically lost a full year of what should have been the most profitable time of their career.

Tonichelle · May 13, 2008

blue dog said:
This is just speculation on my part, but I think that the biggest would-be benefactor (if it had not started to "choke" the life out of skating) would have been Scott and Sandra themselves. Since Scott owned SOI, he stood to benefit by having the two gold medal-winning pairs on his show. And since Sandra choreographed for SOI, she would've been there making numbers for them. But, alas, interest in skating dwindled, and so have Scott's profits in SOI...

I don't think someone who has that much invested in who wins/loses should be judging (thank goodness) or commentating.

Sandra was let go of SOI after the olympics... and I think it's a bit unfair to suggest Scott was the one who wanted to propell the whole scandal, he's the one commentator from that night to apologise for what he said and backed out of it...

I don't think anyone that has as much as he does invested in skating wanted that sort of scandal - cheating judges makes people shy away from the sport in a big way. Yeah he benefitted from it by signing on both pairs afterwards... but he's not the reason it happened.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 13, 2008

There is so much work one has to do to answer these merged threads. from different posters. Is it worth the time? I think the Mods should give a lesson on how not to waste so much time.

original by escaflone.
But Joe...M&D were clean that night in 1994 and it was G&G who made errors. Katia Gordeeva said in "My Sergei", that M&D got slightly more applause at the medal ceremony and that it bothered her.
Kwan and Lipinski were both clean in 1998, and while Lipinski may have been more "on fire" that night, there were still 3 judges who preferred Kwan, which means there was still some room for disagreement. I guess I'm just not convinced there ever was a "must skate clean" standard.

As to SLC, I would have given S&P the technical mark, and B&S the edge on presentation( I agreed most with the Chinese judge).I never had a strong opinion at the time as to who should have won, but it got a bit tiring to see all the hysteria and it made me dislike S&P for quite a while(though I've warmed to them and have started to like them since '06).

There is always the inherent bias of taste among people and judges are included.
I believe that is the reason for having so many judges so that the majority choice is the winner.

If you judged that night and realized that the two most successful teams are competing with each other, there is nothing one can do except select the team without mistakes. Not unusual in Skate Dance.

I saw the flub that Anton made as a minor mistake but I did not like the way he lost control of the program for 20 seconds thereafter. Go to the youtube and see what I mean.

At the conclusion I would say S/P deserved to win that night, but B/S remained the better team, imo. S/P really took on much more as Pros.

Joe

hockeyfan228 · May 13, 2008

Joesitz said:
I saw the flub that Anton made as a minor mistake but I did not like the way he lost control of the program for 20 seconds thereafter. Go to the youtube and see what I mean.

I don't see this. I thought he made a small bobble of several seconds, and while his face took a little while to recover, to me it looks like his body was right back into the program. She's so fast, that had he not kept up with her, it would have been blatantly obvious, and I don't see much distance between them.

The 1998 Olympics SP is a different story, although he really only lost about 4-5 seconds on the fall, and she slowed for him. However, the quality of all of the other elements was top-notch (although I don't quite understand what a +3 [for lack of a better term] back death spiral is), and I find this one of the most satisfying musical interpretations I've ever seen in skating.

Controversial Olympic Competitons

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