Joannie Rochette

I agree with Chuck basically.

Joannie is Joannie and she is no Michelle Kwan. I love Joannie as Joannie Rochette, not somebody who skates like Michelle Kwan.

Chuck is also right in a sense that she doesn't believe in herself either. I think her inconsistency partially comes from the fact that she puts on a mental block against herself. Like Kurt said during 08 nationals that she is capable of doing so much more and she just doesn't bring it out on the ice. I think partially has to do with the fact that she is the only elite-level lady in Canada and the nation (the fanatic Canadian fans) expects, expects and expects from her. I do hope she gets over this.

I hope she continues on with what she started in 2007-2008. When you look at the last season, she landed 5-6 triples pretty much every single FS. If she doesn't freak out in SP and lands 6 triples in FS as she did last season, she has a shot at a podium spot.

chuckm said:

Please. Joannie is a good skater, but she is no Michelle Kwan.

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No, she's no Michelle Kwan. However, I think her edges are just as good, her jumps are higher and have more punch although not nearly as consistent, she's faster than Kwan was, and her stroking is more powerful. I prefer watching Rochette; she's closer to my ideal than Kwan.

She doesn't have the consistency, nor the competition nerves, nor is she close as a competitor.

passion

glad to hear it is your opinion that joannie has michelle's grace. because she is nowhere near it.she clunky, slow, no expression. shut off the music, you don't feel a thing from her skating like sasha, unlike sasha she does show a bit more passion, sasha skated like she had a board up her---. no passion, stiff, but that is what the judges wanted.

also joannie rarely gets call on her edges. (per candian coaches and judges because they don't want to get call for them) to bad michelle did even when it really didn't count.
joannes jumps are okay not great. but doable In other words --she does the jump .
as far as gp zhang easier hardly. skate canada didn't call edge jumps, skate america did, canadian nationals didn't call edged jumps , caroline zhang got nailed when the junior skaters didn't mirai, rachel and even ashley, but kimmie and caroline did.
caroline zhang didnn't have easier grand prix event.
if you guys are totally honest, joannie has lots to improve, can she medal. probably --but it is more mental with her than anything

fairly4 said:

caroline zhang didnn't have easier grand prix event.

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LOL, anyone who's being honest knows Joannie had much stiffer competition in the past Grand Prix Series than Caroline Zhang did. Caroline faced Kimmie Meissner and Miki Ando who both really struggled at Skate America. Emily Hughes was also there and REALLY lacked difficulty in her programs. Caroline then faced Yu-Na Kim, who skated well, and Carolina Kostner, who really struggled at Cup of China. In two GP events, Caroline only had 1 tough challenger, Yu-Na Kim, at Cup of China.

Joannie, on the other hand, faced Mao Asada and Yukari Nakano at Skate Canada, who both skated really well in the LP. She then faced at Cup of Russia, Yu-Na Kim, who set the new world record for the highest ladies' LP score under COP, and Yukari Nakano was there too and skated well, and Joannie was able to overtake her in the LP standings, but was 3rd overall. In two GP events, Joannie had 3 tough challengers in Yu-Na Kim, Mao Asada, and Yukari Nakano. They were the top 3 finishers in terms of points during the Grand Prix. Joannie was the 4th place finisher in terms of points. Those are the facts!

what will it take to get Joannie on the podium at Worlds?

Winnipeg said:

what will it take to get Joannie on the podium at Worlds?

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Probably for the whole Japanese team to decide not to compete....they are just that deep!!

To summarize the previous posts and my 2 cents:

- Confidence: she needs to project the image of an alpha-female competitor just like Yu-na or Carolina do.

- Consistency with all the jumps: Her jumps are great as they are now. She has a good snap, spring to the air, tight spinning. Midair position is absolutely beautiful. When she becomes a bit more consistent, she will be up there.

- 3F-3T: I believe she is working on it. Now, she needs to have it both SP and LP.

- Better step sequence: She is not slow. When you see her live with the likes of Yu-na Kim, she is any slower than Yu-na. But she slows down in step sequence.

- More extension and variations in spins.

- Keep the gorgeous spiral sequence.

Winnipeg said:

what will it take to get Joannie on the podium at Worlds?

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A clean SP and a clean FS. She does not have a PCS cushion to hold her up as the other top skaters do (Kim, Nakano, Asada, Kostner, even Meier).

Originally Posted by chuckm
At 23, Joannie Rochette has never won an ISU Championship event.

And there are a lot of 'so so' skaters who also have never won an ISU Championship event either. Including Sasha Cohen, Elena Sokolova, Mirai, Nagasu, and Yukari Nakano.

Sackie said:

Originally Posted by chuckm
At 23, Joannie Rochette has never won an ISU Championship event.

And there are a lot of 'so so' skaters who also have never won an ISU Championship event either. Including Sasha Cohen, Elena Sokolova, Mirai, Nagasu, and Yukari Nakano.

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Cohen has won Olympic silver, 3 World medals and a GPF championship. Sokolova has won World silver, Junior World silver, and 3 European medals.
Nakano has won Junior World silver and two 4CC medals.
Nagasu has won 2 Junior World medals and a JGPF championship, all before reaching the age of 15.

If these are all 'so-so' skaters, then what does that make Rochette, who has never won a Senior or Junior World medal or a GPF or JGPF championship?

Yet folks on this board are comparing Rochette favorably against 5-time World Champion Michelle Kwan.

chuckm said:

Yet folks on this board are comparing Rochette favorably against 5-time World Champion Michelle Kwan.

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I think you need to read more carefully. There are some of us who think that Rochette is better in some ways than Kwan. I happen to prefer watching Rochette to Kwan, but as I made clear, she's nowhere near the competitor that Kwan is.

I would compare Volchkova's stroking, speed, and 3Lz favorably against Kwan. At her strongest, I would compare Sebestyen's 3Lz and 3Lip favorably against Kwans 3Flatz and 3Flip, and even at her worst, I think Sebestyen had more speed and better positions in her spins. I would compare Kostner's speed favorably to Kwan's and her spirals at least as comparable. I would compare Emily Hughes' best 3Lz and 3F favorably to Kwan's best 3Lz and 3F. Yurikari Nakano spins circles around Kwan.

Kwan was the finest all-around skater of her time, and she knew how to compete as well as anyone. But that also meant that many other skaters surpassed her in individual skills.

Those who like to watch Rochette more than Kwan can go ahead and watch. I find Rochette a darned good technical skater (most of the time, anyway) but her performances are noticeably effortful and she looks exhausted towards the end; that's the only emotion I can detect in every one of her performances.

Kwan made skating look easy, she could sell the heck out of a program; she was so emotionally into her music and communicated that so magically to the crowd that she regularly moved audiences to tears. IMO, that was her great gift, that set her apart from other skaters, far more than her technical ability and consistency.

chuckm said:

Those who like to watch Rochette more than Kwan can go ahead and watch. I find Rochette a darned good technical skater (most of the time, anyway) but her performances are noticeably effortful and she looks exhausted towards the end; that's the only emotion I can detect in every one of her performances.

Kwan made skating look easy, she could sell the heck out of a program; she was so emotionally into her music and communicated that so magically to the crowd that she regularly moved audiences to tears. IMO, that was her great gift, that set her apart from other skaters, far more than her technical ability and consistency.

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Okay. I can't argue with that.

chuckm said:

Those who like to watch Rochette more than Kwan can go ahead and watch. I find Rochette a darned good technical skater (most of the time, anyway) but her performances are noticeably effortful and she looks exhausted towards the end; that's the only emotion I can detect in every one of her performances.

Kwan made skating look easy, she could sell the heck out of a program; she was so emotionally into her music and communicated that so magically to the crowd that she regularly moved audiences to tears. IMO, that was her great gift, that set her apart from other skaters, far more than her technical ability and consistency.

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Okay, I don't think I need to tell anyone on this board how much I absolutely love MK. She is my favorite female skater ever, period. What is perplexing about your response is that Kwan competed under 6.0 (with the exception of one event, the 2005 Worlds), a judging system that allowed a skater to breathe within a program, thus giving the skater the opportunity to bring a program, the character, theme, and music to life. The technical demands of the sport in how it has advanced under COP no longer really allows a skater to breathe within a program. Joannie is certainly not the only skater now who looks exhausted after a program. Especially tough is the fact that she did not grow up under the COP system, but rather is one of the more advanced skaters who grew up under 6.0 and then had to readjust everything to fit COP. Given that fact, it is remarkable how well she has adjusted when you consider how the other advanced skaters like Fumie Suguri, Elena Sokolova, Julia Sebestyen, etc., have all struggled in their efforts to readjust to the new system. Joannie has done really well to be competitive with the likes of Yukari Nakano and Carolina Kostner now, as few skaters today are, aside from Yu-Na and Mao, obviously.

Just about all the skaters appear tired at the end of their programs now and with very good reason given all the required edge changes in spins, all the various positions that are required to be reached in order to gain points, and always having to think of the constantly changing rules EVERY year under COP. I'm exhausted just thinking about it, so I really have nothing but admiration and respect for the skaters who try and compete in ISU competition the way it is now. The requirements of the 6.0 judging system compared to the requirements of the COP judging system are as different as night and day. The changes that have taken place, even since the 2006-2007 season to now, have made the sport SO MUCH MORE difficult and mentally and physically taxing for the skaters, with the endless whip-cracking of wrong edge and under-rotation deductions. Michelle was a very fine 6.0 skater and personally still is my favorite female skater, but to try and compare the 6.0 generation skaters to the COP generation skaters is unfair and ludicrous.

Other skaters show emotion while skating exhausting programs. Nakano was most noticeable this year--she won the crowd with her FS, URs notwithstanding. Rachael Flatt always skates with joy and abandon, yet was able to complete 7 triples, including a 3/3 and a 3-jump combo.

So it IS possible to express the character of the music and still get in all the elements. The skaters that can do it get the higher PCS scores.

Joannie and Injuries

Last season was pretty much the first season for Joannie to miss any major injuries. After 4CC, she told reporters that being able to concentrate on her training and not hampered by injuries made a huge difference in terms of the results. If she can stay injury-free again this season, it is still possible for her to step up from the last season and get closer to the podium.

As for Rachael Flatt that everyone is harping on, we will see where she stands when she becomes an old-school 22. I remember Kimmie was a wonder kid just two seasons ago. Yukari, yes I agree that she does sell her programs, but as for Rachael, give her a couple of more seasons and see how she progresses.

musketerr,

yes those are the facts, but fact this, in Skate Canada, which Mao, Joannie and Yurkari competed at.The Skate Canada DIDN'T take anything off for edges (no wrong edge call whatsoever), whereever Caroline Zhang went they did take off, for wrong edges, underrotation and such. Skate AMERica they nailed every single skater their so it followed all skaters throughout the grand prix series, because SKATE CANADA DID NO such thing, the skaters (Joannie, Mao, Yurkari almost got a free pass until later in the year.)
The only Time Joannie got CALLED for UNDERROTATION and wronge edge was LATER In the year--such as Four Contintents and Worlds. so naturally her scores and maos would have been lower if they called them right. yu na got called at cup of china (her first event). than complaining came about so she didn't get called at CUP of Russia. where Joannie
IF they did it right SHE would have got called in Skate Canada, the scores would have been lower. yes right--your got mad that she didn't get in. i never said she didn't deserve to be in --in place of Kimmie. personnally, i though kimme shouldn't have been in. but that is another story.
Scores why if they don't call one for wrong edge and underrotation and the other they do, __IT REFLECTS IN THE SCORES)--so NATURALLY ONE (The one where they didn't get the calls is HIGHER Than the one that GOT THE CALLS)which makes the SCORES IRREVELANT

fumie_fumie said:

Last season was pretty much the first season for Joannie to miss any major injuries. After 4CC, she told reporters that being able to concentrate on her training and not hampered by injuries made a huge difference in terms of the results. If she can stay injury-free again this season, it is still possible for her to step up from the last season and get closer to the podium.

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IF she can skate clean. And what were the 'injuries' Joannie suffered in 2006-2007 and 2005-2006, and how did they affect her skating? Didn't she win gold at SC 2006 and bronze at 2007 4CC, and didn't she almost make the 2005-2006 GPF, finish 5th at the 2006 Olympics, and win the QR at 2006 Worlds?

As for Rachael Flatt that everyone is harping on, we will see where she stands when she becomes an old-school 22. I remember Kimmie was a wonder kid just two seasons ago. Yukari, yes I agree that she does sell her programs, but as for Rachael, give her a couple of more seasons and see how she progresses.

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Kimmie won Worlds with a two-3/3 technical program, but she has never been strong in the presentation area. Rachael did win JGPF silver, Nationals silver, and JW at just 15, and considering her age, her presentation skills are well developed. Her technical skills may undergo change as she grows and matures, but I don't see why her presentation skills would deteriorate. I would tend to think they would be even better at 22.

Meanwhile, at 22, Joannie displays technical skills but her ability to show any emotional connection with her music is limited.

chuckm said:

Meanwhile, at 22, Joannie displays technical skills but her ability to show any emotional connection with her music is limited.

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This is where it gets subjective. You mentioned in an earlier post what a great performer Michelle Kwan was and how she reached over the boards to the audience. I never got that from her. I consider Kwan a great technition and competitor with great lines, not a great performer. Joannie on the other hand I find is a solid performer who interprets her music impecably and gets every nuance. There's an excitment to Joannie's skating that Kwan never had. IMO Joannie has a much greater connection to her music than Kwan ever had. I understand this is subjective, and you have the right to your opinion, but give your complains against Joannie a rest. She's not your kind of skater, now move on.

silver.blades said:

Kwan a great technition and competitor with great lines, not a great performer. Joannie on the other hand I find is a solid performer who interprets her music impecably and gets every nuance. There's an excitment to Joannie's skating that Kwan never had.

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Joannie is a strong and very competent skater, and that is about it. Her programs are devoid of either emotion or interpretation; she goes mechanically from one element to the next, regardless of the music. To me, she is as exciting as paint drying. Considering her PCS scores, the judges aren't bowled over, either.

To each his/her own.