Flip or Lutz? Which is REALLY harder?

blue dog · Jun 10, 2008

(Inspired by a line from one of the responses in Mathman's "Sports" thread)

Skating analysts, experts, skaters, coaches, etc--say that the lutz is the hardest toe jump (second only to the axel in difficulty). As another poster noted, the flip, considered easier than the lutz, had more falls at the 2002 Olympics. Perhaps the skaters have a mental block when doing the flip (the flip "cost" Michelle the gold in 2002, and in 1998--it was the jump she saved; it cost Irina a medal in 1998, and Lipinski missed it at US Nationals in the SP in 1998), or perhaps it is just as hard, if not harder than the lutz?

Lutz (comes at 0:35)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jniy2CbyaAA

Flip (comes at 0:55)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8oRk1HHmrqo

Mafke · Jun 10, 2008

To clarify my point.

I'll grant that in a skating rink during practice learning the lutz (especially properly and not a flutz) is harder than the flip. Holding the outside edge when you're anticipating spinning in the other direction is hard.

But ... one of the things that's most affected by the stresses of competition is timing and timing just isn't as big an issue with the lutz (you're holding an outside edge or changing over to the inside edge and hoping the judges don't notice) while the flip has the trickiest timing which is why the flip seems more liable to go wrong when a big crowd and bunch of judges (and maybe tv cameras) are focused on you.

I think (it might be worth studying) that the flip might also be more susceptible to ice conditions. I remember one euro competition where skater after skater was landing (or not) the lutz and then popping the flip, someone was speculating that the ice was too hard or soft and the skaters weren't able to set the toe pick properly.

gkelly · Jun 10, 2008

blue dog said:
Skating analysts, experts, skaters, coaches, etc--say that the lutz is the hardest toe jump (second only to the axel in difficulty). As another poster noted, the flip, considered easier than the lutz, had more falls at the 2002 Olympics. Perhaps the skaters have a mental block when doing the flip (the flip "cost" Michelle the gold in 2002, and in 1998--it was the jump she saved; it cost Irina a medal in 1998, and Lipinski missed it at US Nationals in the SP in 1998), or perhaps it is just as hard, if not harder than the lutz?

Well, I don't think you can take a few isolated instances to make a case one way or another. They might inspire you to do a more thorough study, if you're really interested.

Another factor to consider, in addition to those you suggest, is how much practice time skaters put into each jump. If triple lutz is considered the most difficult jump for the top elite ladies and the one they have to have and have to repeat to be considered contenders, they may spend a lot more time practicing that jump and possibly to their eventual regret neglect others that are less challenging but also considered less crucial.

Tinymavy15 · Jun 10, 2008

Like most things, it is a matter of personal preference. Some skaters, like Mao Asada and Caroline Zhang find the salchow the hardest jump, but it is generally taught first and has a low base value. Some skaters find spirals hard, other cringe at the thought of a new step sequence. Personally, I prefer the flip because it feels more natural and the timing is easier. the lutz, especially when done from a long backwards edge like C. Kostner requires more effort.

Bennett · Jun 10, 2008

Jeffrey Buttle barely misses flip but his lutz is rather inconsistent, even though it is very beautiful when he lands it. He has a very deep outside edge.

vlaurend · Jun 10, 2008

Mafke and Gkelly both make great points regarding the different timing issues and the amount of practice time that might be devoted to lutzes vs. flips.
In the past season, Mirai Nagasu and Caroline Zhang have both fallen on double axels, but that doesn't mean the double axel is more difficult than the triple flips and triple lutzes they landed. More likely, it's because they saw it as easy that they didn't think about it and messed up as a result.

TtonyV7 · Jun 10, 2008

Flat out, both jumps are difficult overall among all skaters. However, I agree on how some will have an easier time with the lutz or the flip, depending on the skater.

Some skaters consider the Lutz slightly more difficult because of the blind entrance, hence why so many Lutz's are way to close to the boards.

Another things is the technique skaters use to get through these jumps. Going into the Lutz round/circle wise is more difficult rather than going it straight. The reason is that entering the jumps rounded ensures a more pure outside edge, and is more "proper" per say. Watch Alissa Czisny do this.

Another example of technique use is Tatiana Malinina, who had a solid Lutz and Flip, but hated the Loop. She consider the Flip easier than the Loop in the sense that she enters the jump in a pure Salchow format. Literally, Malinina's Flip was a Toe-Salchow (as the jump can sometimes be refer to as). A truly classic approach to the Flip jump.

mskater93 · Jun 10, 2008

I would say from personal experience that the Lutz is harder than the flip because it's the one that you have to concentrate on to get right when competing (or practice). For most skaters, the flip is a no-brainer (in comparison) that can turn into a flop if you aren't paying proper attention. Basically, if you let your guard/mind down, your butt goes down. Typically the skaters discussed here who miss a flip have just completed a Lutz.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 10, 2008

I would say which take off edge is the skater most comfortable with. Back outside edges get a lot more practice than back inside edges since there is no need to practice school figures. But nowadays, even in rink sessions, and practice sessions, back outsides are used more than back insides.

It's very difficult to see a back inside edge Flip as compared to the back outside Lutz. While I admire the technical panel, anyone in the arena can see the takeoff edge, and there are always disagreements. The need for instant reply is so needed and this is a perfect example.

Since the demand for some sort of pre step(move) requirement for both jumps, the clever skater can quickly cover-up the take off edge. Was it a true edge or was it the flat of the blade, or of course, the wrong edge. Not easy to tell, imo.

Joe

antmanb · Jun 11, 2008

Joesitz said:
I would say which take off edge is the skater most comfortable with. Back outside edges get a lot more practice than back inside edges since there is no need to practice school figures. But nowadays, even in rink sessions, and practice sessions, back outsides are used more than back insides.

I'm not entirely sure on what you are basing the fact that back outside edges get more practice than inside edges. If you look at any moves drills ever edge is tested and both directions must be practiced. Turns will usually involve both inside and outside and forward and backwards turns. Along with edge pulls/changes.

Ant

bibi · Jun 11, 2008

i think that when you start skating and that your learn a single flip or a single lutz, the single flips is really easier. But when it comes to the double flip or the double lutz, or even triple flip or triple lutz, it really depends on the skater. It depend on which edge they fill more confortable. It's for that reason that many people flutz or lip. They fill more confortable on an inside edge or an outside edge.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 11, 2008

antmanb said:
I'm not entirely sure on what you are basing the fact that back outside edges get more practice than inside edges. If you look at any moves drills ever edge is tested and both directions must be practiced. Turns will usually involve both inside and outside and forward and backwards turns. Along with edge pulls/changes. Ant

I'm not so sure turns are exact edges except in Skate Dance. some top single skaters do have excellent edges.

I did preface my post by speaking of comfort of one edge over the other.

For some skaters the Lutz is easier than the Flip as we can see in the number of LIP takeoffs. Hardly anyone mentions Flat takeoffs, but they exist.

Joe

antmanb · Jun 11, 2008

Joesitz said:
I'm not so sure turns are exact edges except in Skate Dance. some top single skaters do have excellent edges.

I did preface my post by speaking of comfort of one edge over the other.

For some skaters the Lutz is easier than the Flip as we can see in the number of LIP takeoffs. Hardly anyone mentions Flat takeoffs, but they exist.

Joe

I don't know, i think i most coaches are very particular about edges in turns. If you are not on the correct edge then the correct turn cannot be executed. That is why we are seeing the new mini-serpentine "straight-line" step sequences, otherwise the skater cannot clearly prove to the caller that particular turns have been executed.

I agree that most skaters find the backward take off easier on one of the two edges but i doubt that it has to do with how much time they spend practising edges since i believe all edges are worked by the skater simply stroking forwards and backwards in both directions.

Ant

gkelly · Jun 11, 2008

Turns need to be pretty clean in the US Moves in the Field tests. They're not scrutinized as closely as school figures were, but a lot more closely than random connecting moves in a freestyle program would be.

As ant mentions, in step sequences the callers do look at the turns closely in determining what level to award, so they are practiced for those purposes.

Back outside edges might get a bit more practice than back inside in the sense that they're used for landing positions (on the opposite foot from the lutz takeoff) and are more common for spirals than back inside.

But just practicing back edges wouldn't help much with the difficulty of the lutz takeoff. It's not holding the edge in isolation that's difficult, but reversing the direction in concert with the pick in and jump.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 11, 2008

antmanb said:
.

I agree that most skaters find the backward take off easier on one of the two edges but i doubt that it has to do with how much time they spend practising edges since i believe all edges are worked by the skater simply stroking forwards and backwards in both directions.

Ant

You haven't noticed bad stroking in competitions? But I am with you in the ideal world

GKelly - . totally agree with you but I don't think the topic was all inclusive. It just asks for which is more difficult the Lutz or the Flip. Nothing about sequences or even combos.

Joe

blue dog · Jun 11, 2008

Joesitz said:
GKelly - . totally agree with you but I don't think the topic was all inclusive. It just asks for which is more difficult the Lutz or the Flip. Nothing about sequences or even combos.

Joe

You can talk about sequences and turns here. Footwork before a flip certainly adds difficulty to it (rarely do we see footwork RIGHT before the lutz takeoff; most often
they do footwork right before the long back outside edge), and sequences after the lutz could make it more difficult. It is all part of which makes which more difficult, no?

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 11, 2008

blue dog said:
You can talk about sequences and turns here. Footwork before a flip certainly adds difficulty to it (rarely do we see footwork RIGHT before the lutz takeoff; most often
they do footwork right before the long back outside edge), and sequences after the lutz could make it more difficult. It is all part of which makes which more difficult, no?

No problem with the sequences being discussed but it should be without reference to anything I said. I reiterate what I said: Some skaters can execute one edge better than the other. I went on to suggest that there maybe a reason for the unequal edges that being the lack of school figures. That wasn't suggested in stone. It was just a simple suggestion. Feel free to say that all skaters have equal edges without school figures, if you like.

As to sequences which I did not bring up, that involves two jumps connected by a step of sorts. To follow the topic subject, I believe it would relate to the first jump only.

The jumps by definitions have specific edge take-offs. Some skaters have less trouble with the Flip than with the Lutz. Some visa versa.

I would like to add at this point, I am not against the Caller's ruling. I just wish the audience could see the close ups of the take-offs that he sees.

Joe

antmanb · Jun 12, 2008

Joesitz said:
You haven't noticed bad stroking in competitions? But I am with you in the ideal world
Joe

Depends which competitions you're talking about. Local competitions with low ability skaters - yes plenty of bad stroking.

But at Worlds or Europeans - bad stroking i have seen none. I have seen less than perfect stroking out of some skaters, and maybe just ok stroking towards the bottom of the pack at those competitions but i don't think bad stroking.

Ant

antmanb · Jun 12, 2008

blue dog said:
You can talk about sequences and turns here. Footwork before a flip certainly adds difficulty to it (rarely do we see footwork RIGHT before the lutz takeoff; most often
they do footwork right before the long back outside edge), and sequences after the lutz could make it more difficult. It is all part of which makes which more difficult, no?

I don't know about that. The ladies seem to do that standard 3Lz/2T and solo 3F but the man do their standard combos (with or without a quad) and have solo 3Lz with steps preceding. Generally the steps into the 3Lz finish off with LFO mohawk, cross left foot over right onto LBO edge and jump. I find these to be much quicker into the jumps than the often legnthy prep for the flip from steps.

Ant

Mafke · Jun 12, 2008

Joesitz said:
Some skaters can execute one edge better than the other. I went on to suggest that there maybe a reason for the unequal edges that being the lack of school figures.
The jumps by definitions have specific edge take-offs. Some skaters have less trouble with the Flip than with the Lutz. Some visa versa.

I think the problem with multi-rotational jumps in high pressure competition is different from preferences for different edges. The big problem is that skaters have to learn the jumps too young before they can control their edges (either on one foot or in turns)

The big problem with the flutz is that the only way young skaters know how to get onto an edge is to learn their upper bodies and they have no idea of how to hold an edge when their upper body has to be doing something else (like preparing for rotation in the other direction).
The problem with the flip is that they can't control the turn at the speed necessary to do a multi-rotational jump and end up doing (in effect) a rocker instead of a three turn (or Choctaw instead of Mohawk) or they're just on flats the whole time.

I would assume that a lack of figures is a big contributing factor (since figures are the best way to train certain skills related to holding an edge and making clean turns). But this is a hurry up world and I wouldn't be surprised if the ISU backtracks on edge calls and just starts defining jumps by approach rather than take off edge. The audiences love the little jumping beans and don't want them penalized for not being able to do things they've never been trained to or penalized for things the audience can't see (or plain doesn't care about).

Flip or Lutz? Which is REALLY harder?

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