A possible solution to underrotations? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

A possible solution to underrotations?

Sackie

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
And would it really matter. Those who have their favorite skaters will never admit they underroated no matter what equipment is used to show it.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I don't think complicated tools are really needed in figure skating. With a good camera angle it's not that difficult to see underrotations. Just nice camera angle is enough in most cases, IMO.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOOhGt0WHU
Who will direct the camera angle? I see a lot of competitions LIVE like the judges and Tech Panel do, but I contend if are looking at a jump from beginning to landing, and you are viewing from the side of the skater, a spectator, judge or panelist can not see an underrotation clearly unless there is some sort of jerky movement to make the jump look complete. A camera view from the rear of skater as he/she is landing the jump will easily show passable landings or underrotations.

Problem here is that the cameraman must take the tape of ALL the skaters. A special device would not be so cumbersome when in use and we will all see the perfect or imperfect jumps on the Jumbotrom.

To ask myself, will this happen? I will say NO for the same reasons that secret judging is used.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
No matter where you place the camera(s), there will be a better viewing angle for some jumps than for others, because skaters can place jumps anywhere on the ice with any kind of approach they're capable of, for at least six different kinds of jumps.
 

singerskates

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
In tennis there is a computer program called hawkeye that uses an elaborate system of cameras and physics calculations to determine the exact location of the ball. It is a back up to the line callers.

Even though it might be a bit expensive, figure skating could use a similar program to determine the exact rotation of a jump. A technical specialist just tell the computer which jump and it will tell if it was 2.789 revolutions or 3.0165 revolutions.
I don't know if such a program exactly be better for figure skating. What if it turns out the most women triples are under 3.0? Or what if it turns out that most men get the full revolutions? Will they set the bar of underotations higher for men and lower for women? Will they try to throw in extra points for complete revolutions, will they try to take off points for slight over rotations? How will effect the fans? Will take something away?

Actually Skate Canada already has a computer program/system that does what you're talking about. I don't know what the program name is though. How do I know about it? At the end of our 2008 Skate Canada Adult Championship farewell banquet, one of my skater friends who competes in Adult Competitive in Canada and Masters at the ISU Adult Competition was having her program analyzed with the Skate Canada CPC tech and I saw how they could freeze every movement down to the nano second on the laptop to show where she was making mistakes. It was really cool. I didn't watch long to watch and didn't interupt because I wanted to get back to the competition rink to watch the StarSkate Nationals before driving back to Windsor, ON. It seems that Skate Canada has this program intergrated into the CPC marking system. And it's the reason, my spiral sequence was given a big fat Zero ( Let go of my second spiral position in the change edge way to early, so the whole thing was a nothing even though it looked nice to the eye.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
They were probably using Dartfish to review elements. It's not a cheap solution and you have to look at it in review in a specific way. If you look at coachesquiz.com or skatingjumpsecrets.com, Trevor Laak used Dartfish analysis on the elements he reviewed.
 

icestar

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
jump rotation

You can also se from Trevors site that skating jumps do not have the same rotation in the air as their name impries. ie. a single axel can be called ISU clean with only 1 rotation in the air. The foot actually does a 1/4 turn on take-off and landing can be up to 1/4 underrotated so that an outside edge can be acheived.
A double loop is usually 1 1/4 rotations in the air, 1/2 on the take off, 1/4 on landing, and this is the way it has been for a long time.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Pre-rotations on the ice are an arguable topic of discussion, but seldom discussed in skating boards. Many feel they are not all that important as is the skater's posture during the air turns and the jump landings within the limits permissable. That's just what I noticed, however, personally, I do see serious errors in wrong take-offs of any kind.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
How, then, would you generate the rotation if the jump didn't pre-rotate? From a physics standpoint, the rotation has to start on the ice in order to achieve anything more than one rotation.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
I don't believe pre rotation is the problem. One can pre rotate a half-turn and still do a clean three turns in the are if they actually do 3.5 turns. I believe thats why a clean quad is so hard. Because it is really doing something between 4.25 and 4.5 revolutions. If you count the rotation on the ice. I thought the technical pannel starts when the blade leaves the ice so pre- rotations doesn't matter. You can pre-rotate three turns if that what helps you but it won't count a bit.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ I think "pre-rotation" means still being on the ice when you start counting the revolutions. A skater might jump from a back edge but not actually leave the ice until he is facing almost forward, then do 3 and a half revolutions in the air and call it a quad.

The consensus seems to be that for edge jumps there is no other way to do it, so a triple loop, for instance is barely more than 2 complete revolutions in the air (as Antman writes above).

The rules seem to allow this, except for the toe-loop. If you pre-rotate your toe-loop too much (so that it takes off forward and rotates only two and a half times in the air), then it is downgraded to a toe-Axel. Mao Asada used to have this problem, until last year.

The one thing you can't do is pre-rotate half a turn, then do three complete revolutions. If you did that, you would land facing forward and fall on your face. :)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
How, then, would you generate the rotation if the jump didn't pre-rotate? From a physics standpoint, the rotation has to start on the ice in order to achieve anything more than one rotation.
Very true. Only Surya Bonnaly can do a double axel from a standstill, and actually air turn 2.5 times. While that is a difficult feat, she would only get the base value for the jump in CoP scoring.

And cheating goes on in other forms of Dance. Not easy to jump from a standstill. The more speed, the easier the jump but you better be clean on the jump because it could be a 'harder they fall.'

Combos show the most prerotations than single jumps but It is such an audience pleaser, it doesn't matter.
 

Binthere

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Didn't Evan Lycacek also start one of his programs with essentially a standing double axel? Was 2001, his first season as a senior at nationals. Started the program with a bang.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
^ I think "pre-rotation" means still being on the ice when you start counting the revolutions. A skater might jump from a back edge but not actually leave the ice until he is facing almost forward, then do 3 and a half revolutions in the air and call it a quad.

The rules seem to allow this, except for the toe-loop. If you pre-rotate your toe-loop too much (so that it takes off forward and rotates only two and a half times in the air), then it is downgraded to a toe-Axel. Mao Asada used to have this problem, until last year.

Actually, you CAN pre-rotate the toe loop and get credit, it just depends on HOW you pick. If you pick it like a pivot or Makurka and kick up and over, you get the same pre-rotation as a Salchow and it counts as a toe loop (see Yuna Kim's toe loops). If you pick out away from the plant foot and turn forward-and-then some on that toe pick (usually ~ 3/4 rotation on the pick before lifting off the ice) it is called a toe Axel because that is essentially what you are doing and the "<" is called.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Didn't Evan Lycacek also start one of his programs with essentially a standing double axel? Was 2001, his first season as a senior at nationals. Started the program with a bang.
I think his first gold in USNats was showing a wrong edge takeoff for the 3A but the Caller didn't catch it. At least that's what I saw in a youtube that another fan posted.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
^ I think "pre-rotation" means still being on the ice when you start counting the revolutions. A skater might jump from a back edge but not actually leave the ice until he is facing almost forward, then do 3 and a half revolutions in the air and call it a quad.

The consensus seems to be that for edge jumps there is no other way to do it, so a triple loop, for instance is barely more than 2 complete revolutions in the air (as Antman writes above).

The rules seem to allow this, except for the toe-loop. If you pre-rotate your toe-loop too much (so that it takes off forward and rotates only two and a half times in the air), then it is downgraded to a toe-Axel. Mao Asada used to have this problem, until last year.

The one thing you can't do is pre-rotate half a turn, then do three complete revolutions. If you did that, you would land facing forward and fall on your face. :)

Since some pre-rotation are needed for certain jumps, the pressure sensors wouldn't be a good idea. Or COP can still use a pressure sensors and redifine what qualifies as a single,double, etc edge jumps.I'll go for the latter.I think having a combination of pressure sensors and high speed cameras will do the trick. The sensors will allow the program to know when the skater exactly leaves the ice. And having two sensors one near the back and another near the two pick. The program can also uses the sensors like motion capture to determine the revolutions. The sensors will aslo make it easier to detect two-footed landings.
 

bethissoawesome

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Actually, you CAN pre-rotate the toe loop and get credit, it just depends on HOW you pick. If you pick it like a pivot or Makurka and kick up and over, you get the same pre-rotation as a Salchow and it counts as a toe loop (see Yuna Kim's toe loops). If you pick out away from the plant foot and turn forward-and-then some on that toe pick (usually ~ 3/4 rotation on the pick before lifting off the ice) it is called a toe Axel because that is essentially what you are doing and the "<" is called.

This is a good video to demonstrate how Yuna pre-rotates on the ice for her toe loop (by method mentioned above) but is still given positive GOE's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90bKBt4k26Y
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
You all saw the instant replays in slo mo at the Olys. This is what Figure Skating needs. How expensive could it be? A camera shooting to the back of the skater will tell all wrong edge takeoffs and under rotations. But when?
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
This is a good video to demonstrate how Yuna pre-rotates on the ice for her toe loop (by method mentioned above) but is still given positive GOE's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90bKBt4k26Y

Sorry but the point of the clips in the youtube video are about UNDER rotation on the landing not pre-rotation on the take off. Kim has perfect text book technique on the take off of the toe loop - there is no pre-rotation on the toe pick on take off and the leg comes through exactly as it should.

Ant
 
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