Sashas Edges | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Sashas Edges

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
This is post #200 , lets aim for 250

If this thread is just about facts, it will be a bit business as usual, I believe the physics/ math make it interesting.

So if the physics and math gurus are still up to it, why not create a formula about gush/worship v criticism/ bash and see how the skaters do with a scientific formula.
 
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mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Rgirl,
I'm not sure what the diff in Sasha's edge between 2002 and 2003. All I know from 2003 season she did improve a lot on edge. But I feel kind strange when people say that Sasha's edge was better when she was with Nick. TT has always been a dancing coach and dancing is where edge mostly emphasised. How come Sasha's edge getting worse after she switched to TT. But may be it depends on the skater? Every one talked about Ilia K.'s excelent edge in man's field. But Alaxie Y. dose not has the best edges in today's Rusian man field, Abt is the best. While TT coached both Ilia and Alaxie.

IMO, good edges take the time, watch MK early years program -- when she was Sasha's age -- her edge wasn't that deep, stroking wasn't that low knee and smooth as it now, but her edge has been always under control. Talking about take time, I mean the time you actually spend on ice. With pro you'd expect to see more smooth, deep edges. But in lady really only Doughty has it. Akasona complete lost it the last time I saw her. Niether Kat W. nor Lu Chen has it now.
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
# 202

IMO, good edges take the time

Like everything skating.

Many people claim that a background in figures helps. I am not sure that is entirely correct. Tara has deep edges at a young age. At 15 Carolina's edges are awesome, her basic skating skills is better than 2 of the top 4 ladies at worlds 03.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
rturek - Sorry to disagree but I never saw Tara with even passable edges. Check out your tapes even the Oly win. Her spiral on the diagnol is a perfect example of a flat spiral. It's effective as all spirals are but it is flat. Her second season in SOI got it on a curve. Tara's footwork does not exist at the Olys because she couldn't edge (she came from rollers where edging is entirely different). Most of her program was completely cross overs forward and back - no edging beyond that.

She was improving in SOI, but imo, never really a finished skater. Her big Americana number in that girl scout dress was just a lot of marching on the flat.

In all fairness she had good positions in her camels and her 3/3s, although low and spinning were remarkable at the time. But, it was never enough for me. Sad about the hip, even today keeps her from the loop jumps.

If we get to see her in one of those TV specials, let's see if her edges and footwork are more than forward crossovers and cut backs.

Joe
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
# 204

Joe we just have to agree to disagree about Tara. I am not talking about her spiral edges, but her basic skating skill edges.

Footwork in the Shenadoah program was awesome.

"finished skater" - if we are picky about it, there are probably 2 ladies in the pro ranks - Kristi and Yuka, and one lady in eligible rank.

What is your definition of "finished skater", just want to make sure we are sorta in agreement about the definition here.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
rturek - Yeah, we can disagree. I have that in common with so many posters:\

In the case with Tara, when I first saw her, I immeditely went to the no edges. then I found out she was a former roller champ, and I realized that's why she has trouble edging on ice. as a former roller champ myself, I know that when we all switch to ice it's a tough ride to get the ice edges. I've talked about this with other roller skaters and we all had the problem. (The tricks, btw, come easy because we got those heavy rollers off our feet). One's head knows exactly how to edge (on rollers) but one's body (on ice) does not react the same. It takes a long time to break the roller habit and get to proper ice edges. However, it can be done but one must always keep the ice edges in mind because if relaxed one will revert to roller edges on ice and they don't work.

The Shenandoah (I had forgot the name) was a nice number for Tara, but it was not an edgy number. Tara does excellent tricks. Her spins are quite well placed and she has excellent posture, fast rotation in the air when she jumps - not exactly my cup of tea, but then, I am as subjective as the next person.

And one of the biggest plusses for Tara, imo, is her joy in skating. She has great charisma on the ice. But I return to the edges and I don't see the Dorothy Hammil in Tara. She's not the only one, and I hold back praise for those lacking edges, too.

Oh, I almost forgot. A Finished Skater for Me would be a skater who has developed total artistry with solid technique. It's not easily seen in amateur skating, and it's not about triple combos or quads. Edging is of paramount importance, but flow and ease of speed is right up there. It takes time to reach this artistic level. Cute little skaters, imo, just don't have that. Yuka Sato is the finist example of a finnished skater. Ms Hammil, of course.

Joe
 
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berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
"watch MK early years program -- when she was Sasha's age -- her edge wasn't that deep,"

What are you talking about. Sasha is 19. When MK was Sasha's age, she was wining her 3 world title (5th world medal) and 4th nat title with The Red Violin.

I could see how you could say that her edges back in 95 weren't so deep, but in 2000? Really?
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
berthes ghost said:

What are you talking about. Sasha is 19. When MK was Sasha's age, she was wining her 3 world title (5th world medal) and 4th nat title with The Red Violin.

I could see how you could say that her edges back in 95 weren't so deep, but in 2000? Really?

OK, I correct here. Watch her stroking before 97 or 98 program then watch in 2003's. Big difference.
 

BravesSkateFan

Medalist
Joined
Aug 7, 2003
OK, I correct here. Watch her stroking before 97 or 98 program then watch in 2003's. Big difference.

Yes there is a big difference between say Michelle's 95-96 season and her 97-98 season. But IMO even then her edges were better or at least on par with Sasha's now. And MK was only 16-17 at that time. I'd really love to see what Sasha could do with edges like Michelle. I know she'd be lovely to watch.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Mzheng,
Thanks for asking your question about the differences between Sasha's edges in the '01-02 season and the '02-03 season since it is rather a fine point. I said I thought Sasha's edges were more SECURE in '01-02, which does warrant explanation. I think Sasha's edges were just as deep in '02 as they were in '03, but from what I saw during the change to Tarasova, Sasha lost a good deal of muscle mass. If you look at her at '02 Nationals and Olympics vs. '03 Nationals and Worlds, in '03 I think she looks thinner and her muscles are both less defined and have less mass. In '01-02, Sasha had an intensive off-ice training regimen, primarily Pilates, which uses both resistance and stretching simultaneously. In '01-02, Sasha's body, if not her skating, was a lean mean skating machine. Her head, IMO, needed work, as in how to focus, where to focus, goal-setting, and how to harness her natural competitive fire so that it worked for her not against her. Sasha also needed work, IMO, in terms of making her programs one connected whole instead of choppy sections. Some of this was due to poor choreography, but most of it was due, IMO, to Sasha not knowing how to "feel" a whole program in her mind and body. Sasha did best in the SP in '01-02 I think because it was short. It was in the LP where she would lose her concentration, improvise moves, change the order of things, etc. Not good. Anyway, I think Tarasova has helped Sasha with her focus, the psychology of competition, and how to absorb and perform an LP as a whole--this despite Sasha's extremely poor performances at Nationals. But to me this is par for the course in any steep learning curve. Sasha made tremendous progress in her GP events this past season. Just compare her fall '02 GP events to fall '01--no comparison. Sasha continued to skated well at the Canadian Open and Crest Whitestrips in December. With the pressure on at Nationals and Sasha still in the middle of going "up" on Tarasova's learning curve, not to mention Tarasova learning how to handle a ladies singles and a US skater, it did not surprise me that Sasha got her "failure" lesson at Nationals.

I'm digressing, sorry. As for Sasha's edges, the reasons I think Sasha lost security in her edges with Tarasova are as follows:
1. The loss of muscle mass and strength from not doing her off-ice training. I don't know if Tarasova told her she didn't need it (some coaches, especially older ones, don't like their skaters to be muscular) or if Sasha stopped on her own.
2. Tarasova does not have Sasha do full runthroughs with jumps. According to Sasha, she trains sections of her LP or does her LP without the jumps. To me, this is a terrible training approach for a skater, though it has been THE training method used by Russian coaches for decades. One reason was that at competitions, they didn't want other coaches and skaters seeing their whole programs and stealing moves and choreography. Obviously this comes from the days before videotape. Also, coaches know judges watch practice. Russian coaches only wanted the judges to see their skaters at their best, so they would practice a section of their LP, look great, and rest; do another section, look great, and rest. The problem was that many Russian skaters never developed the physiologic endurance they needed to do the entire program well. Also, neurologically, they never developed a motor program for the whole LP. Thus the skater who is trained this way, as Sasha was with Tarasova, never develops the neurologic pathways (muscle memory) nor the physiologic mechanisms (endurance) to be physically and psychologically secure in the LP. Easier to do in the SP, but the same principles apply.
3. Although Tarasova is an ice dance coach, the previous singles skaters she had, Kulik and Yagudin, had the great Russian basics in edging and other techniques. They wanted and needed someone to bring out the artist in them. I think Tarasova can be beneficial to Sasha in this way too, but I don't believe Tarasova worked on Sasha's basic skating skills the way they needed to be. I don't know if Tarasova realized Sasha was so behind in her basics (she didn't start skating seriously until age nine) or if TT chose to work on the "whole" first and the basics later. IMO, Sasha gained a lot from Tarasova, but she backslid some as well. This is not unusual when changing to a coach who is vastly different from your former coach, but with expectations for Sasha so high people are scrutinizing everything about her skating, as is par for the course.

Overall, I think Sasha's edges were less secure in '02-03 than they were in '01-02 because she lost some of the strength in her center and in her hips and thighs that enable the skater to get "down into the knees" and "into the ice." A skater who has the abdominal/lowback strength (center) and hip/thigh strength to power down into the ice is a secure skater. Michelle and Irina are the best examples of this. Actually, Michelle got BETTER in terms of her edge security, IMO, from '01-02 to '02-03, which I think had a lot to do with her off-ice training.

So Sasha could still get the same depth of edge in '03 as she could in '02, it just wasn't as secure through her whole body. I would watch Sasha in '01-02 and when she wasn't trying to do a quad and making a mess of her LP, she looked like there was nothing that could knock her down on that ice. I think her Olympic SP is a good example of this. Just watching her opening strokes in that SP, I KNEW she would not fall. Her Olympic LP was not as secure because she was trying the 3/3 and she also had focus problems, IMO; but still her basic skating on the ice was solid.

This season, Sasha looked skittish on the ice, as if she were skating slightly on top of it instead of down into it. She didn't have the deep soft knees she had in '01-02. In her spiral, she could hold a beautiful deep edge but watching her I'd think, "I could blow her over." Maybe it's a subtle thing.

Anyway, Mzheng, that's what I meant. I hope this explains it more clearly. You may not agree, but if you have tapes, I hope you will watch and compare the programs I mentioned from this season and last. I'd love to know what you think.
Rgirl
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
#211

Tara does not need any defending, but JMHO, her edges were good even at 14, with a roller skating background. She also generated a lot of speed for someone who was so tiny :)
 

registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
berthes ghost said:


What are you talking about. Sasha is 19. When MK was Sasha's age, she was wining her 3 world title (5th world medal) and 4th nat title with The Red Violin.

I could see how you could say that her edges back in 95 weren't so deep, but in 2000? Really?


That's exactly, I believe, where the root of harping on Sasha's "shallow edges" lyes.

If Sasha kept winning competition after competition, like she did in the beginning of the past season, no one would really pay much attention to the "problem" of her inside edge not being
a bit deeper here, or her outside edge, being more secure there.

But she makes mistakes, IMO just gets too nervous at the important competions, maybe more now, than when she used to while being younger, because now she feels like she needs to prove something.

As Joesitz correctly pointed out, Tara's edges were never spectacular, even though she had a pleasant, smooth stile of skating. But she was holding it together, and kept winning almost everything, she've entered. Michelle was always more polished and smooth skater, than Tara, that along didn't prevent Tara from beating her in competitions.

Sasha's edges are good, not to say she doesn't need to work on them, and try to get better. But they're decent enough right now to be commended by sport's top professionals.
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Tara's edges are IMHO better than Sasha's, and Tara has speed . I don't mean Sasha's are bad, just average consistent with what I expect from a senior level skater.

My pleasant surprise : the junior world medalists, I think Carolina, Yukina have better edge quality / basic skating skills than Cupcake and Sasha.
 
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registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
We'll agree to disagree on Tara Vs. Sasha. But would you agree with me, that Michelle had better edges, than Tara when both were competing?

I watched Carolina's skating, and IMO she's only "half baked," as a skater, so to speak. Fabulous jumper, but not a polished skater yet. She seems to be pretty rough around the edges. I would not even compare her style to Sasha's at this point. (Please, don't tell me, that Carolina won something at Junior Worlds, I'm talking strictly about quality of skating.)

Unfortunately, I haven't seen much of the young Japanese girls to be able to form an opinion. They definitely look fantastic, I wish I'd be able to watch Japanese Nationals (really, why don't they televise it in the US?;)
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I watched Carolina's skating, and IMO she's only "half baked," as a skater, so to speak. Fabulous jumper, but not a polished skater yet. She seems to be pretty rough around the edges. I would not even compare her style to Sasha's at this point.

I am talking about Carolina's basic skating skills and edge quality, her speed, and stroking efficiency. I had front row seats at worlds, and Carolina has flowing deep edges, and speed.

How many skaters are able to do a short program serpentine footwork all on one foot? Sasha did (I mean Sasha Abt), Galina, and Irina - but they are senior skaters. Carolina's serpentine fw on one foot was awesome.

Carolina maybe rough around the edges, but she has DEEP, flowing speedy edges!!!!

Now if we want to adjust things for the age, Carolina at 15 has basic skills that skates many circles around the 15 y/o Cohen.
 
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registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
rtureck said:
I am talking about Carolina's basic skating skills and edge quality, her speed, and stroking efficiency. I had front row seats at worlds, and Carolina has flowing deep edges, and speed.

How many skaters are able to do a short program serpentine footwork all on one foot? Sasha did (I mean Sasha Abt), Galina, and Irina - but they are senior skaters. Carolina's serpentine fw on one foot was awesome.

Carolina maybe rough around the edges, but she has DEEP, flowing speedy edges!!!!

Sasha Cohen did serpentine footwork on one foot, leading into 3 jump (sal?) at her post-Olympics COI tour (Hernando's Hideaway), very impressive. They have it on COI web site, by the way.

You had front row seats at Worlds? Lucky you...
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
registered said:
Sasha Cohen did serpentine footwork on one foot, leading into 3 jump (sal?) at her post-Olympics COI tour (Hernando's Hideaway), very impressive. They have it on COI web site, by the way.


I remember that, but the ice coverage is not quite the same as Carolina, Irina and Galinas. Again, hate to bring up the word SPEED. An exhibition program is different from a competitive short program. BTW, didn't you said Sasha has better ice coverage than Michelle Kwan in the spiral? Actually if we are allowed to use exhibtion programs then in 01 COI program, Michelle's spiral covered a letter S approaching a number 8 with the apex to base of the S being the length of the ice rink.


Sasha's basic skating skills is consistent with an average senior level skater. Again, I am not saying her edges are bad. I also said in another thread that Sasha's edges are improving.

LOL front row seats but not center ice though.
 
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registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
rtureck said:
I remember that, but the ice coverage is not quite the same as Carolina, Irina and Galinas. Again, hate to bring up the word SPEED. An exhibition program is different from a competitive short program. BTW, didn't you said Sasha has better ice coverage than Michelle Kwan in the spiral? Actually if we are allowed to use exhibtion programs then in 01 COI program, Michelle's spiral covered a letter S approaching a number 8 with the apex to base of the S being the length of the ice rink.


Sasha's basic skating skills is consistent with an average senior level skater. Again, I am not saying her edges are bad. I also said in another thread that Sasha's edges are improving.

LOL front row seats but not center ice though.

Speaking of ice coverage, Sasha's COI serpentine footwork covers almost an entire length of the rink. I never tried to clock the speed of Irina's and Sasha's footwork, and even though both done exactly to the music, Sasha's impresses me as the one, that's done smoother (but maybe it's because it was an exhibition program).

http://www.championsonice.com/skaters.php?Skater=6

Yes, I said that Sasha's spiral covered more ice, than Michelle's at COI 2003. Saw it with my own eyes, and had a very good seat too. :)
 
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