Sashas Edges

hockeyfan228 · Sep 17, 2003

As Joe pointed out, "baby" ballerinas refers to age, not size nor style. There have always been young dancers, just like there have always been young skaters, but there were three of them at one time -- the magic number for critical mass -- and they were marketed properly by the Ballet Russe. One of the originals was Toumanova, who, like Nureyev, was born in transit, on a train.

gkelly · Sep 17, 2003

mzheng said:
However Michelle had always been able to control her edge... and we never saw her falled on spin, footwork, etc.

How about the "dead butterfly" at Skate Canada 1997?

Actually we rearly saw any elite lady fall on these elements.

Much less common than falling on jumps. Falling on her final spin probably cost Shizuka Arakawa a top-6 placement in the SP at 2003 Worlds.

lavender · Sep 17, 2003

hockeyfan228 said:
As Joe pointed out, "baby" ballerinas refers to age, not size nor style. There have always been young dancers, just like there have always been young skaters, but there were three of them at one time -- the magic number for critical mass -- and they were marketed properly by the Ballet Russe. One of the originals was Toumanova, who, like Nureyev, was born in transit, on a train.

Well for me it’s size and Sarah’s hardly a baby ballerina type. This is just my opinion.

Lucy25 · Sep 17, 2003

gkelly said:
How about the "dead butterfly" at Skate Canada 1997?

Michelle fell on that move because of her broken toe, not her poor edging! It was right after that competition that she was put in a cast.

peachstatesk8er · Sep 17, 2003

Lucy25 said:
Michelle fell on that move because of her broken toe, not her poor edging! It was right after that competition that she was put in a cast.

She said it was the toe that made her fall?

IIRC Sasha said it was poor (slushy, soft, ?) ice that caused the fall on her spin.

Everyone has an excuse.

Rgirl · Sep 17, 2003

Things happen. Alexei Yagudin had a poor performance at the '98 Olympics when he had a fever of 102. IMO, there is a difference between an excuse and a reason. Michelle's broken toe was a reason. If Sasha caught an edge on a rut (she said certain sections of the ice felt as if a marching band had gone through it), to me that's a reason. IMO, an excuse is something like, "The judges just don't like me." Or "I would have landed that jump if the rink had been the right size." For me, injuries, illness, and truly bad ice are not excuses but reasons. JMO.
Rgirl

Mathman · Sep 17, 2003

Thank you for saying that, Rgirl.

MM

shine · Sep 17, 2003

I don't mean to say Sasha has good edges or anything, but it's becoming more and more ridiculous to me now how people keep attributing Sasha's "silly" mistakes" to her "poor edging". How and when did this start anyway? When this first got started it was at most a little side joke..and now it's become a fact. Go figure. :rolleye:

Yes she makes silly mistakes and her edges could be improved, but they are pretty much irrelevant. The "edge" on her flying change-to-inside camel and the "edge" she strokes/skates with are two completely different things. Also her wrong edge on the lutz entrance and her general "poor edges" are also two differennt things. There are many skaters with superb basics who also flutz and lip all the time, ie. Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskya, Sarah Hughes, Nicole Bobek, Fumie Suguri, Angela Nikodinov etc. I see those silly mistakes she makes more as a result of her focus loss (which happens relatively often) and not having mastered controlling of movements yet than anything.

mzheng · Sep 17, 2003

peachstatesk8er said:
She said it was the toe that made her fall?

IIRC Sasha said it was poor (slushy, soft, ?) ice that caused the fall on her spin.

Everyone has an excuse.

As I said in another post. Watch Nat's tape, Sasha's camel spin in Nat's Short also running wild -- her free leg went too high, even her dead fan said that in his review -- That's the same spin element she falled at 2003 Worlds, right? It's not coincident!

As for her little mistakes. IMO, contributed by 3 factors:
1) Lack of mental toughness and concentration? That's why she skated clean SP more often than LP.
2) Lack of physic strength. That's why last season as the season progress she has to move her jump elements front in her LP. And you know when your body tired, it is much hard to keep mental concetration.
3) Lack of Control of Edge. Note that I didn't say she is lacking of edge, for one by one element she may have average edge in top elite lady, but she is lacking of Control of it.

peachstatesk8er · Sep 17, 2003

I no longer save tapes of Nats and Worlds. Once I've watched them I tape over them. There hasn't been much to make me want to rewatch, but, in response to several people saying Sasha looks weak, well, you've obviously never seen her up close and personal. The girl is all muscle. She may look thinner from Pilates, from growing, from a combination of the two, but I don't think she's a weak, tired person at all.

I also don't think her edges are as bad as a lot of people say they are. They're not the best, but they're not a liability in general, IMO. I do think she lost control of that spin because she was too far on the edge and lost it. She had not had that problem in previous seasons so hopefully that will get resolved.

I do think she loses focus and that is probably her biggest problem. I think she gets excited, or concentrates on the wrong things and simply loses focus on what needs to be getting done and as a result she makes tiny mistakes that add up. Hopefully that will change. All in all, I think she has wonderful technique on many, many things and if she can keep her head will certainly continue to move upwards.

rtureck · Sep 18, 2003

#290 , OK 350 is a goal

There are many skaters with superb basics who also flutz and lip all the time, ie. Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskya, Sarah Hughes, Nicole Bobek, Fumie Suguri, Angela Nikodinov

I wouldn't say all the time, at least not all the skaters you mentioned As long as they flutz and lip in the same program, e.g triple lip/ 2t, triple lip and triple flutz :laugh:

ITA all the skaters you mentioned have supberb basics skating skills.

registered · Sep 18, 2003

Speaking of baby ballerinas... Take a look at this talented intermediate skater (and an adorable one too). Her name is Caroline Zhao Zhang. Enjoy!

http://swpskating.com/zhaozhang.html

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 18, 2003

Sasha performed excellent skating in the last year's GP. I, for one, was not looking at any particular part of her technqiue. But the sum of the parts were excellent and the gold was deserved, imo.

So there is more of a problem with Nats and Worlds. Why were they not as good? The exhibitions were good at both. Sasha can do it but she is human like other skaters, and other sportspeople. Does Tiger win every event?

Joe

lavender · Sep 18, 2003

Joesitz said:
Sasha performed excellent skating in the last year's GP. I, for one, was not looking at any particular part of her technqiue. But the sum of the parts were excellent and the gold was deserved, imo.

So there is more of a problem with Nats and Worlds. Why were they not as good? The exhibitions were good at both. Sasha can do it but she is human like other skaters, and other sportspeople. Does Tiger win every event?

Joe

I agree but actually Sasha had a bad exhibition skate at Nationals. It wasn't pretty. I felt that she was still upset with the results of Nationals and wasn't really concentrating. I wouldn't blamed her if she just wanted to go home.

chuckm · Sep 18, 2003

If you actually look at Sasha's GP performances, the best SP and FS were at Cup of Russia, where she won silver to VV. Next best were her GPF performances.

Sasha had falls, sometimes in both SP and FS, at Skate Canada and Lalique, but won gold anyway. The toughest competition she faced in those events were Yoshie Onda and Fumie Suguri, both of whom had rocky performances also. Fumie typically doesn't peak until late in the season. Onda's presentation has improved, but not sufficiently to be a real threat to Sasha.

Agreed, Sasha's roughest skates were at Nationals, where the pressure was the most intense. But her Worlds performances are fairly comparable to her GP skates.

swannanoa54 · Sep 18, 2003

I thought her exhibition at

at Nationals wasn't "spot on", as they say. She fell during it as well. It was like the heart had just gone out of her.

Now, I saw her skate at COI. I happen to like her R&J program but I was surprised to see how slowly she skates. Yes, the music is slow and dreamy, but still I kept wanting to crawl over the people in front of me and give her a little push. It might have just been an off night. She certainly looked faster on television which is the exact opposite of what you normally see.

Each time Sasha makes a careless error, and some of them are just plain careless (which is a lack of concentration/focus), I feel very bad for her. She is a wonderful skater.

Mathman · Sep 18, 2003

Registered, about your new "baby ballerina": AAWWWWWWW.

http://store3.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1758_117837767

shine said:
I don't mean to say Sasha has good edges or anything, but it's becoming more and more ridiculous to me now how people keep attributing Sasha's "silly" mistakes" to her "poor edging". How and when did this start anyway?

I have a similar question.

To me, ice skating is controling your edges. That's what you do when you go out on the ice, you control your edges. Your edge, after all, is the only part of you that makes contact with the ice. If you don't control your edges, you fall down. If you fall down, it's because for that moment you lost control of your edge.

Why you lost control of your edge -- nervousess, loss of focus, fatigue, you leaned too far over and were going to slow, you hit a hole in the ice, etc. -- that's a separate question.

Am I way off base here?

Mathman

swannanoa54 · Sep 18, 2003

Hey mathman

I think I agree with you.

But then again, I saw you standing over in left field so you could be way off any base. :laugh:

Mathman · Sep 18, 2003

You probably saw me out in the field trying to balance on one leg, pretending I was doing an outside ege.

BTW, the one and only time I actually tried to skate, well, I guess my boots didn't fit, or my ankles were too weak or something. My feet just splayed out to both sides and all I could do was hang on to the boards until my big sister came and rescued me.

MM

Lucy25 · Sep 18, 2003

peachstatesk8er said:
She said it was the toe that made her fall?

To my knowledge "she" (meaning Michelle) never gave an excuse. But later on, in fluff pieces, the narrators did. Whenever you see any coverage of Michelle's injury they show her fall on that move at SC. I have never heard Michelle give an excuse for poor skating or silly mistakes. Even when competing ill she has said that an athlete trains to compete through illness.

Sashas Edges

hockeyfan228

gkelly

lavender

Lucy25

peachstatesk8er

Rgirl

Mathman

shine

mzheng

peachstatesk8er

rtureck

registered

Joesitz (RIP)

lavender

chuckm

swannanoa54

Mathman

swannanoa54

Mathman

Lucy25

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