Sashas Edges

Joesitz:

In defense of Sasha. She does have edges but they are not in the Dorothy Hamil class! It will take time.

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Don't forget Dorothy was from the "old school" of figure skating - tracing figures - of course there is no comparison.

Give Sasha a break! I think she has a lovely line and beautiful flow. Her edges are not as deep as they could be, but skaters development today in this area is not the same as it was in the old school figures days. That's why they need to work more at developing deep edges. Ice dance would help improve this area.

Norlite said:

That is so sweet how you jump right in to defend Sasha!

Perhaps from now on you should be known as :

"Sir Registered--Most Loyal Fan."

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Aww, thanks. Oh, and notice, I'm not spreading tales about my least favorite skaters, saying they don't have basics, either.

(You guessed a gender wrong, I'm a she.)

Gee, my first day back and what do I find? Mean-spirited snipes at a Sasha fan, with a few people assuming Registered is not Registered but AC. Even if Registered were AC, I'm sorry to see such snide remarks at GS. I've made such remarks myself in the past and always regretted it when I did.

Thanks to all those who posted photos. I loved them all but I especially liked the one of Jeff Buttle. Incredible lean and he looks so totally into it.
Rgirl

registered said:

Aww, thanks. Oh, and notice, I'm not spreading tales about my least favorite skaters, saying they don't have basics, either.

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You are most welcome.

Although....I have just reread this thread, and I am still as perplexed by your second sentence as I was when I first read it.

I see no one "spreading tales" (i.e. falsehoods) of their least favourite skater. And I'm going to assume (although I *really* hate assumptions) that you mean Sasha when you say least favourite skater.

There is a six page thread on this forum in which everyone listed their least favourite skater. Sasha's name came up three times. Three times on a six page thread. And, none of those three posters participated in this thread.

Everyone on this thread has done nothing but wish the very best for Sasha, noted that she is an exquisite skater, noted that she is going far, and complimented her on continuing improvement on those elements of her skating that she is the weakest in. Not the weakest in the general field, just the weakest for her.

What more could a skater ask for from fans?

I would think any huge Sasha fan would be very pleased that she has this kind of support.
Many skaters do not.

Norlite said:

I see no one "spreading tales" (i.e. falsehoods) of their least favourite skater. And I'm going to assume (although I *really* hate assumptions) that you mean Sasha when you say least favourite skater.

There is a six page thread on this forum in which everyone listed their least favourite skater. Sasha's name came up three times. Three times on a six page thread. And, none of those three posters participated in this thread.

Everyone on this thread has done nothing but wish the very best for Sasha, noted that she is an exquisite skater, noted that she is going far, and complimented her on continuing improvement on those elements of her skating that she is the weakest in. Not the weakest in the general field, just the weakest for her.

You should be very proud that Sasha has this kind of support. Many skaters do not.

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JMO, since some posters here do not WORSHIP Sasha the same way that some of her fans do, so these Sasha fans equate that to "spreading tales".

BravesSkateFan said:

On another note, I'm not a big fan of the 180 deg. split in sprials, I just don't think its very attractive...

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Wow, I thought I was the only one who thought that. I don't find it very attractive either.

Me either. It's a nice display of flexibility but having less than 180 is far prettier and less of a crotch show...

I personally consider Sasha one of my favorite skaters. However, that doesn't stop me from noticinng her flaws, like her edge control.

blurrysarah said:

Me either. It's a nice display of flexibility but having less than 180 is far prettier and less of a crotch show...

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You're looking from the wrong side.

Personally, I find a spiral, done with a bent knees unattractive.

sasha's edges are fine, not as good as others but she has the best costumes. I hope she can place on the podium this year.

Personally, I find a spiral, done with a bent knees unattractive.

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I find that unattractive too. I'm very picky when it comes to sprials. The free leg can't be to high or to low, no bent knees, don't pitch your body forward, have good edgees, close your mouth....LOL, and thats only the beginning. I'm extremely picky. I'm not that picky with other moves though...just the spiral.

her edges are fine. MK's spiral looks bizzare. Just my taste I guess, but it looks bad.

As for the edge vs flex debate, plenty of skaters have had edges as good as and better than MK. No one, with the exception of Nicole on the spiral, comes close to Sasha's flex...

IMO, Sasha's edges need work both in terms of overall depth and security, but she also shows amazing edge control on many moves such as her catch-foot turning slide spiral and the change to the deep inside edge on her flying camel, to name just two. I actually think her edges got less secure with the coaching change to Tarasova. I don't know if it was because Tarasova was emphasizing other things or if in trying to learn a whole new way of training, Sasha experienced what often happens to athletes with a coaching change. I've talked about the decrease in muscle mass before and hopefully the proposed increase in off-ice training and integration of what Cohen has learned from Tarasova will have a noticable effect. Unless of course Tarasova is spending too much time working on artistry and not enough time on technique. Time will tell. But I hope Sasha improves her blade skills because in terms of line, fluidity, and quality of movement, she is a unique and beautiful skater.

As for the 180-degree split on her spiral, I love it. Of course it's not just the split, it's the arch of the back, the turnout of the free leg from the hip, the pointed toe, the extension (and I mean extension as in S-T-R-E-T-C-H), and the whole quality of the move. I loved Nicole Bobek's 180-spiral and I love Sasha's. I also love the spirals of Michelle, Yuka, Irina (when she doesn't rush them), and a number of other skaters, though of course for different reasons. In his prime, Paul Wylie had one of the most beautiful spirals I've ever seen.

With regard to the amplitude of Sasha's spiral (forgetting edges for the moment), I admit this is bad to ask, but I do wonder if some people don't like the 180-degree spiral position itself or if what they really don't like is the 180-degree spiral position on Sasha. It's no secret that a lot of skating fans do not like Sasha's personality, which is of course their right. And it doesn't make any difference if you don't like Sasha as a person, unless you're a judge and any negative feelings about Sasha as a person affect the way you perceive her skating. I would never ask anyone to answer this, but just as a rhetorical question, would the people who find a 180-degree spiral strange-looking feel the same if Michelle were doing it?

I know, only second day back and starting trouble already Seriously, I don't want to start any Michelle/Sasha battles. In fact the question of whether one's feelings about a skater's personality affects one's perception of the skating is one that could apply to any skater. It might even make an interesting thread topic

As for me, I'll take Sasha's free leg on her spiral straight up, thank you, though I would like more speed and deeper edging. As Mzheng pointed out, the higher the free leg, the more difficult it is to hold a deep edge because of the change in the center of gravity, especially a FIE. I couldn't find them, but there are a couple of photos of Irina and Michelle doing their FIE spiral with the edge at a good 45-degree angle or less to the ice. But you also see, especially on Irina, the free leg out to the side (abducted). Not so much on Michelle. To get a really deep FIE on a spiral and keep the free leg directly behind the hip, especially at greater amplitudes, is incredibly difficult to do without falling over. But then great attention to spirals in skating has only been around for about 10 years. I expect that as skaters find out how much the details of their spiral affect their total in the COP we will see either better coaching techniques for deep edged, high speed, great extension, great amplitude spirals or else we will see less emphasis on spirals. After the COP was changed in gymnastics to greatly reward front tumbling we started seeing almost no back tumbling in the floor routines and a lot less on the beam. Even though I find most of the back tumbling moves more aesthetically pleasing to watch, it's a biomechanical fact that front tumbling is more difficult to do. How the COP affects skating, including spirals, remains to be seen, but I bet it will be very interesting!
Rgirl, Ecumenical Spiral Lover
Rgirl

It's not that the 180 degree split isn't impressive, it is. And it is far better to look at than less flexible skaters who barely get their free leg above 90. I think it just looks less...balletic? I prefer her spirals when they are slightly less than 180. It's the line of the back and the free leg that make a spiral look pretty, and the way the free leg just sticks straight up there doesn't seem to "flow" as well.

On the subject of bad spirals, I personally find Fumie's back position very unattractive. She doesn't have the arch of other ladies.

fanforlady2001 said:

sasha's edges are fine, not as good as others but she has the best costumes. I hope she can place on the podium this year.

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What does costumes have to do with a spiral or even placing on the podium?

I would never ask anyone to answer this, but just as a rhetorical question, would the people who find a 180-degree spiral strange-looking feel the same if Michelle were doing it? -- Rgirl

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I'll answer. Then it would obviously be the most awesome, marvelous, heartstopping, breathtakingly beautiful move in the history of sport. Which, to me, Michelle's spiral is anyway. (Sasha's and Nicole's are right up there, too, LOL.)

In fact the question of whether one's feelings about a skater's personality affects one's perception of the skating is one that could apply to any skater.

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For many fans (I am one) this is uncontestably the case. For these folks, the fun of being a figure skating fan is to pick a favorite and then root, root, root for the home team (Go Jenny Kirk! Go Fumie!) Just like the home town football team, everything your guy does is great, everything the other guy does stinks.

Other fans are more into the sport itself. They like to see outstanding performances by whomever, they like many different skaters, they understand and like to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of all of the competitors with an objective eye. I think that the majority of Golden Skate regulars are like this. That is why I like to read all the opinions on this board.

Still, when all is said and done: Go Michelle!!!

Mathman

PS. Rgirl, about that sentence with three "ones" in it, the third used in a different sense from the first two...

You are all lucky. I'm having computer problems. I can't believe I'm actually on the net. Something happened.

Anyway, a quick scan of some posts:

A bent arabasque free leg works well with certain kinds of music. It is used extensively even in classical ballet.

The Bolshoi wowed the ballet world in 5o whatever, when the dancers executed an attitude with the toe higher than the knee. It took a while but everyone does it now.

As to flexibility. I am much more into the classic ballet world, and can appreciate 180 degree when it is used appropriately. If it is just to show off, I am not impressed.

And, I think flexibility is over rated for a skater. A beautiful arabasque wins me over. Check out Butryskaya.

Joe

Rgirl said:

I would never ask anyone to answer this, but just as a rhetorical question, would the people who find a 180-degree spiral strange-looking feel the same if Michelle were doing it?

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I don't know if I the right person to answer this, since I don't find a 180-degree spiral strange-looking. Actually I love it. If Michelle were doing it, more power to her, but I think her spiral is fine as it is. Every skater has their own style, they don't have to do the same things in order for me to like them. Btw, I've always suspected (=from the look of it and common sense; never tried to do it myself, lol) that if you want to do a 180-degree spiral you have to sacrifice the depth of your edges a little, and for me it's a fair price to pay. The effect is stunning. So, I don't expect Sasha to have as deep edges on her spiral as Michelle has, for example. However I think her edges in general could be better. Hopefully, she'll work on that.

I like the spirals Sasha, Michelle and Nicole do. The spirals I don't like: Vika and Fumie's.

Theoritically, from pure physics analysis, I don't see the relation between 180 split and deep edges. If she can hit 180 split and gets 60 degree on OE spiral she could also be able to hit 180 split and get the degree of edge on IE in her spiral. The difference in body center between 180 split and less 180 split -- as we see Sasha and Michelle -- is in front and back direction not the left and right direction. The fact of lacking of control of edge and speed surely show in her COE spiral.

Sasha sure improved a lot in her edge control last season and through out the season. IIRC, she falled on her FW session at an earlier comp last season, where she falled on is an edge step in her FW. She is not the worst at edges in top ladies, (Onda, and Soklova are worse than her in stroking), but she certainly not the same level as matering the edge control like, Fummie, Michelle, Irina, Sarah either.

mzheng said:

...improved a lot in her edge control last season and through out the season. IIRC, she falled on her FW session at an earlier comp last season, where she falled on is an edge step in her FW.

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Just a clarification: I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to get at but the fall was not because of "weak edges" but because of a momentary loss of balance.