Are you a Michelle Kwan fan?

Yiddish and Kwan ...

Thanks a lot, 4dogknight. Actually I didn't know "Schmuck" was Yiddish ... so far I don't know any Yiddish at all, but after having a look at your link it's easy to understand for me, in fact I don't need the English translation.

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About Kwan's "popularity" outside the US - this FSU thread may help - or not ...

www.fsuniverse.net/forum/...eadid=5849

... just in case you haven't read it already ...

Anke

MICHELLE

Well, I think its only natural that Michelle would have a much higher level of popularity in her own country. America loves the ice princess with an interesting story (and the Olympic disappointment!) and an untarnished reputation. She's been an ever-present, positive figure in a sport that has been plagued with scandal, a sport where young athletes have come and just as quickly gone. Like it or not, she is the face of American figure skating. Ask any casual fan to name a figure skater and I think 9/10 you would hear Michelle Kwan. I would assume its a similar situation for Irina in Russia and Eastern Europe. As for Michelle's popularity in Europe, I have always gotten the feeling that its comparable to any foreign skating star's popularity level in the US. Irina is popular here, but logically its not the same as it would be in her native country or region. I don't think its blind patriotic fervor in favoring athletes from your own country, its just a natural inclination due to shared culture and experiences. LOL, and I love that we can discuss figure skating and learn Yiddish at the same time! What a wonderful display of multi-tasking!

Re: Kwan against the World

Two more cents coming. From growing up in NYC, the term schmuck was a derogatory term describing someone you thought of as not a mensch.

IMO, Kwan'ts popularity in West Europe - not as high as the local skater in that country, but there is respect for Kwan.

Kwan't popularity in Easter Europe - very much less than Western Europe. Irina is a strong favorite here.

Irina's popularity in N.America - very high. Ethnicity plays a big role here. I based this on the readings at Golden Skate. where Russian skaters are praised consistently, and the praisers are N.Americans (usually with a Russian or eastern Europe ancestry). I doubt there are many, if any, Russians in Russia who have N.American ancestry. So the discrepancy is understandable.

From my poiont of view, the bottom line here is ethnicity does play a role in selecting figure skaters as a favorite. Personally, I do not find fault with that. It's whatever turns you on.

Joe

Re: Kwan against the World

I am not a kwan fan for the following reasons.

One

As the leaders in ladies figure skating she has done nothing to advance the sport technically, Unlike IS, SC, and SH she does not try to up the technical anti, she does not attempt 3/3, 3 axels or quads. To me as a leader she should be doing this.

Two

The way flapping she moves her arms is very disturbing to me.

Three

The way her fans insist she is the best ever and any criticism of her launches a barrage of attacks on the poster

Janet

:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: By the way a dork is a whale penis:rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Re: Kwan against the World

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As the leaders in ladies figure skating she has done nothing to advance the sport technically, Unlike IS, SC, and SH she does not try to up the technical anti, she does not attempt 3/3, 3 axels or quads. To me as a leader she should be doing this.[/quote]

And do you honestly believe if not for beating Kwan, IS, SC, and SH will really attempt 3/3, 3a or quads in REAL competetion?

2003's GP final is on of examples. SC (or her coach) knew that she could beat IS without 3/3 so she drop the 3/3 in her program and cut back the contents.

Re: Kwan against the World

This is an interesting question

<strong>"And do you honestly believe if not for beating Kwan, IS, SC, and SH will really attempt 3/3, 3a or quads in REAL competetion?

2003's GP final is on of examples. SC (or her coach) knew that she could beat IS without 3/3 so she drop the 3/3 in her program and cut back the contents."</strong>

My guess is yes because if you take Kwan out of the mix then you still have skaters able to beat each other. In general they have to increase their technical difficulty to win.

In my opinion Kwan is winning because of her consistence not because she is the best. If you look at most of the skaters in the top ten all have continued to improve their technical skills over the last four years while Kwan has not. I prefer skaters who continue to evolve and strive through out their life time.

Janet

Re: Kwan against the World

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you look at most of the skaters in the top ten all have continued to improve their technical skills over the last four years while Kwan has not.[/quote]
I certainly see Kwan improved last year technically. You are right she win by consistancy. If only other top lady can be as consistant as her. I don't have to watch her program again, again, again. Sasha is another skater I like to watching but once she falling the program runnied for me.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My guess is yes because if you take Kwan out of the mix then you still have skaters able to beat each other. In general they have to increase their technical difficulty to win.[/quote]
Yes or no. First it was IS she has to jump difficultly to beat Kwan. Then come along SH, who has to out jump IS, MK in order to beat both MK and IS. Then come along SC she has to jump difficult to beat MK, IS, SH. Now come Japanese ladies who has to jump 3a, quads in order to put at top. While you see MK not pushing tech difficult. I saw it as chain reaction, which MK gave the first pushing.

With MK in the mixing for last dacade she did play a role in pushing lady FS on both Tech and Pres sides. She had won over skaters like Lulu, Maria, who were excelent in presentation in their premium. She had also won over skaters like Tara, Irina, Sarah, Sash, Elena who were pushing 3/3 jumps.

A smart competetor just do whatever enough to win in a competetion. I don't blame her for not try 3/3 in competetion although I like to see her having one in 2004 season.

BTW, I'd prefer skater can at least do 5 type single triple (toe, loop, sal, flip, lutz) correctly before they start pushing jump tech difficult. In that sense I wouldn't call SH or SC for pushing tech difficult, to me these young skaters are like quick money. Irina S., Elena S., Carolina K. may be.

Re: Kwan against the World

Is it just me, or have the pro-Kwan/anti-Kwan Internet wars pretty much petered out? Some people like Michelle's skating, some don't, ho hum. Both sides seem to have mellowed. Those who adore her, let them do so. Those who do not, let them go their own way.

I think that the reason is this. After what Michelle accomplished last season, well, it just seems silly for her detractors to try to beat the bushes to come up with some kind of nit to pick. On the other hand, Kwan fans have no reason to react to criticisms with anything but a shrug.

Also, have you noticed this trend? For Michelle fans, Irina used to be the enemy. Now more and more it's Michelle and Irina against the youngsters.

Go, Yukina Ota!

Mathman

Re: Kwan against the World

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>For Michelle fans, Irina used to be the enemy. Now more and more it's Michelle and Irina against the youngsters[/quote]

Lol. Mathman did I mention Carolina Kostner?

Re: Kwan against the World

For the NonKwan fans. It takes a barrel of 3x3s to beat Michelle. Tara did it and she set the bench mark.

If MK beats a skater who has demonstrated 3x3s and still loses, that skater is in trouble as far as competition.

Cheer up NonKwans, your day is coming - maybe.

Joe

Re: Kwan against the World

**deleted**

Sorry, duplicate post.

Re: Kwan against the World

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Cats on Ice:
I am not a kwan fan for the following reasons.

One

As the leaders in ladies figure skating she has done nothing to advance the sport technically, Unlike IS, SC, and SH she does not try to up the technical anti, she does not attempt 3/3, 3 axels or quads. To me as a leader she should be doing this.
[/quote]

No problem with your preference, to each their own. But I disagree a leader should be pushing the envelope. Michelle or any top athletes for that matter should not have any responsibility to continue advancing the sport. Their job is to win or deliver great performances to their best capability. You seriously think pushing the technical envelope is all that Irina, Sasha and the likes have in mind? Their #1 priority has to be to win competitions and they will have to rummage their own respective bags of talents and capabilities to achieve that. To us, it appears as if they are just pushing the envelope.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Two

The way flapping she moves her arms is very disturbing to me.
[/quote]

Again to each their own. I, on the other hand feel Michelle's hand flapping is very much in tune with the music and not distracting as others' that I have seen. She did lots of hand flapping only very recently that is in Aranjuez. If you happen to have watched her past programs, it was always very minimum and if it wasn't minimum it was never distracting or disturbing as Dick Button himself commented. But it's ok if you find it disturbing.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Three

The way her fans insist she is the best ever and any criticism of her launches a barrage of attacks on the poster
[/quote]

I find this comment very unfair. I have been to some skater-specific forums and I have encountered exactly the same behaviour from some of the skater's fans there. By the way, why should you let a skater's fans' ugly behaviour dictate how much you like him/her? The first 2 aforementioned reasons are "legitimate" reasons for not liking Michelle on your part. But this third reason seems a bit "weird" to me. I'm not criticizing, sorry if you infer that way.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
My guess is yes because if you take Kwan out of the mix then you still have skaters able to beat each other. In general they have to increase their technical difficulty to win.
[/quote]

Agreed. But putting Michelle in the mix makes the competition even much more exciting. To me the more elite players are competing the better and more exciting is it to watch.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
In my opinion Kwan is winning because of her consistence not because she is the best.
[/quote]

How can any athlete win by not being the best? Ok, there are fluke wins, but can anyone say the same of Michelle's? Fluke wins over and over and over for 10 years? Boy, something is seriously wrong with this sport because no one seems to be complaining except her detractors (I'm not implying you are one of them, I'm just trying to form my points for my argument here ).

Michelle has won by being able to consistently skate great or very well. Being consistently mediocre is nothing to write home about but being consistently very good/great is something that few athletes of any sport can achieve because it is in itself technically difficult to do. Can you name me tens of top athletes of any sport who can consistently deliver great performances for 5 years, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years. I doubt if you can, because it's rare and it's rare because it's an extremely difficult achievement. In women's tennis for example, only a handful achieved that like Margaret Court in 60-70s, Evert in the 70s-early 80s, Navratilova in the 80s, Graf in 80-90s. It's freaking rare. Anyone saying Michelle is winning by her consistency and just that is missing the whole picture altogether either intentionally or unintentionally. No athlete can dominate a sport for a long period of time by being consitently mediocre. He/she has to be consistenly very good or great to be able to to that.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
If you look at most of the skaters in the top ten all have continued to improve their technical skills over the last four years while Kwan has not. I prefer skaters who continue to evolve and strive through out their life time.
Janet
[/quote]

Well, you are definitely entitled to have your preference. If you are not into Michelle's skating for the reason of lack of progress technically, it's perfectly fine. But to say it's her responsibility to the sport to continue improving technically, I would have to disagree strongly. I thought she had already done her part in the early years...a necessity to have 2 lutzes, 6-7 triples, a flip in sp, not to mention good presentation. And people still expect her to continue to improve and push the sport? Come on, can she at least get some credit for what she had done before Irina, Sarah and Sasha and now Elena started to push the envelope further?

Re: Kwan against the World

Apache, ITA, you are my hero. I couldn't put it any better.

Re: YES, I'm a Kwan fan!

YES, I'm a Kwan fan!

Re: Kwan against the World

Cats - It true. MK never has did a quad, and from your description of <em>Leader of the Sport</em> only Ando is raising the bar. Prior to her it was Ito and Harding for the 3A.

It would appear that your description of <em>Leader</em> has to do with jumping. That's ok, it's your description and you have a right to that opinion.

But for me it is difficult to not notice the 94 presentation of MK which had skaters scurring to choreographers for routines and style in skating as not raising the bar in Presentation.

Aside from all of that, I would still think of many figure skaters who were outstanding in the Sport: Sonie Henie, for one of many many more.

Joe

Re: Kwan against the World

Yes, a fan of Michelle. I have been following figure skating since 1956. I enjoyed Tenley Albright, Carol Heiss, etc. It wasn't until Peggy Fleming that I actually became a FAN of one particular skater. Enjoyed Dorothy Hamil, Janet Lynn, never cared for Roz, enjoyed Biellman, Midori, Kristi, Lulu, Yuka, Witt etc., but once again only became a true Fan of one particular skater--Michelle Kwan--in 1995. I can truthfully say that it will take a skater extraordinaire to ever capture my complete heart again. If and when Michelle retires I will watch skating but never again with the same intensity.

Kwan

Mzheng, you're flattering me. Everyone is a hero here including you, I do read your posts. And my knowledge pales in comparison with yours and everyone else's.

Patsue, I know what you mean. When she retires (I pray hard she does so only after 2006 Olys), I will be gone too.

Are you a Michelle Kwan Fan?

Apache- -I don't know if I'll be "gone" but it won't bother me if I miss a competition. I know most people think of "Kwaniacks" as being fanatical- -I am to a certain extent but not so far as to believe Michelle's skating is always "perfect." I am not so blind that I cannot see. I know there have been a couple of competitions where Michelle was "held up", but also believe that in the ones where there were close scores between 1st and 2nd that she was judged much harsher than her competitors--it goes back to Michelle setting such a high standard that I truly believe judges EXPECT more from her and when she doesn't deliver they really "sock it to her"! Anyway- -it's just not her skating that has made me a die-hard fan--it's her whole persona, both on and off the ice. In the 10+ years she has been skating I don't think I have ever heard one bad thing said about her by other competitors, family or friends, and I gotta believe that if someone heard something bad about Michelle it would be spread over the web faster than the proverbial speeding bullet! Like you I hope she sticks around a little longer and continues to share her love of and her joy in competing. She never ceases to amaze me.

Re: Are you a Michelle Kwan Fan?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I know there have been a couple of competitions where Michelle was "held up", but also believe that in the ones where there were close scores between 1st and 2nd that she was judged much harsher than her competitors--it goes back to Michelle setting such a high standard that I truly believe judges EXPECT more from her and when she doesn't deliver they really "sock it to her"! [/quote]

ITA from a Kwan fan.

And, patsue, here is a salute to a fan started follow FS even before I was born.

Re: Are you a Michelle Kwan Fan?

Thanks mzheng! Yep--I am officially a senior citizen (whatever THAT means). Don't know how I got so old so fast--wait a minute OLD? Inside I'm stuck at 18! I always joke that I'll be the only little white-haired lady in a wheelchair in an "old folks" home rocking out to Def Leppard! Rock on.