Zhang Hopes to Improve on Grand Prix Success

AdamFan · Oct 19, 2008

The USFSA absolutely chooses who will be supported. Evan was supported over Johnny for the past two seasons. That is up for grabs this year (could be a rift within the judges/organization). Evan represents the 'straight' male image they want to present, but Johnny draws all of the attention, is beloved by skating fans and the media, and has been doing well internationally. The international judges prefer him to Evan.

Michelle was always the USFSA's chosen one from 1994-onwards, even when Bobek won Nationals. They are used to communicating and dealing with Shep Goldberg, who is now Caroline's Karl Rove. It was very telling that they had her stay home all summer and train, while Mirai did show after show. Placing her at Skate Canada is a strategic move...she's likely to challenge Kostner and shouldn't have a problem beating Joannie Rochette.

The USFSA definitely promoted Kwan over Lipinski. The USA judge even placed Kwan over Lipinski at the Olympics. Kwan and Goldberg knew how to play the politics game correctly, which is what Zhang is now doing. The international judges already know and respect her, which is why she's the best hope to make the GPF.

feraina · Oct 19, 2008

PolymerBob said:
That pearl spin of hers is a guaranteed level 4. That's quite a bit to lose.

That would be. But when I saw her at Golden West, she did the pearl spin beautifully both in the SP and LP, so I don't think that's at risk of loss.

What's different about her pearl spin is that two seasons ago, she used to get an extra feature, by speeding up in the pearl while pulling it in tighter. She no longer does that, but she can still get level 4 comfortably by pulling it up into a Bielman, which by the way looks stronger than ever, probably because of added strength. For instance, Mirai's Bielman has always been less flexible but more powerful-looking than Caroline. That extra tension can actually make the Bielman more impressive.

feraina · Oct 19, 2008

Groshkova said:
Michelle was always the USFSA's chosen one from 1994-onwards, even when Bobek won Nationals. They are used to communicating and dealing with Shep Goldberg, who is now Caroline's Karl Rove. It was very telling that they had her stay home all summer and train, while Mirai did show after show. Placing her at Skate Canada is a strategic move...she's likely to challenge Kostner and shouldn't have a problem beating Joannie Rochette.

The USFSA definitely promoted Kwan over Lipinski. The USA judge even placed Kwan over Lipinski at the Olympics. Kwan and Goldberg knew how to play the politics game correctly, which is what Zhang is now doing.

I wonder what political game you think Zhang is playing, or that Michelle Kwan was playing! Plus given the botched scoring of Zhang at US National's last season, it's really hard to believe that USFSA favors her over anyone else. She barely made it back to JW as the defending champion, there were even suggestions that Alex Gilles, the junior champion should go instead of her.

I personally tend to think that Zhang ended up not at SA because USFSA does NOT favor her. When did USFSA ever not put their favorites at SA just because of potential strong competition?! They care a lot more about ratings, their top problem at the moment, than any preference for any one skater over another going to the GPF. You can be sure that the initial impression of Rachael, Mirai, and Kimmie for being chosen to compete in SA was one of being honored, while Caroline probably felt a little left out. If Kimmie had been left out, for instance, I'd bet she would feel like that USFSA has lost faith in her because of her bad season.

Zhang lucked out this time because she ended last season not so much in the limelight, and not favored by USFSA. While SA is unarguably competitive this season, Zhang could very well have been chosen to compete at CoC or NHK instead, which are both pretty tough fields too.

Here's a thread about relative competitiveness of the GP's:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22438

Anyway, it will be good for Mirai & Rachael to compete at SA. It's a chance to compete against the big girls and shine. Caroline did it last year against Kimmie, Miki, (two most recent world champions) and Emily (who was a hair away from beating Kimmie to the national's crown), and turned in a stunning debut that got everyone's attention. It's a big opportunity for Mirai & Rachael to do the same.

I'm just tired of everyone talking about USFSA favoring Caroline. I really haven't detected any special preference at all. USFSA simply went with who did best at National's and World's.

Mathman · Oct 19, 2008

PolymerBob said:
That pearl spin of hers is a guaranteed level 4. That's quite a bit to lose.

But then again, not all that much. A level four layback is worth 2.7 points. A level three, 2.4.

Groshkova said:
The USA judge even placed Kwan over Lipinski at the Olympics.

I don't read too much into that. IIRC the U.S. judge, Joe Inman, is a music specialist who typically puts a lot of weight on interperetation and presentation. Michelle skated great at 1998 Olympics, as did Tara. As Tatiana Tarasova famously said, "Why didn't Frank Carroll slip us a bottle of vodka. What did we care which American girl won?"

The same judge, Joe Inman, placed Slutskaya ahead of Kwan in 2002. I don't think the USFSA was involved in a conspiracy to prop up Sarah Hughes against Kwan.

And...Inman is also mentioned on Caroline Zhang's new Wikipedia entry as a big Caroline Zhang enthusiast. :laugh:

Korshkova said:
They are used to communicating and dealing with Shep Goldberg, who is now Caroline's Karl Rove.

I love it! The only difference is, Shep Goldberg is good and Karl Rove is evil. :yes:

Feraina said:
You can be sure that the initial impression of Rachael, Mirai, and Kimmie for being chosen to compete in SA was one of being honored, while Caroline probably felt a little left out.

I think they went pretty much by the book. Mirai and Rachael were first and second at Nationals. I think they chose Kimmie instead of #3 Ashley Wagner for just the reason you suggest -- to show support for a U.S. and World Champion who also has a lot of television appeal.

BTW, in the Grand Prix series last year, Kimmie not only won her first event, beating reigning world champion Miki Ando, but she also got silver at Eric Bompard, losing only to Mao Asada. The rest of the season wasn't so great, but I don't think USFS is ready to throw Kimmie on the trash heap just yet.

museksk8r · Oct 19, 2008

Groshkova said:
Placing her at Skate Canada is a strategic move...she's likely to challenge Kostner and shouldn't have a problem beating Joannie Rochette.

Joannie Rochette's personal best SP is 60.04 and her personal best LP is 119.50.

Caroline Zhang's personal best SP is 62.60 and her personal best LP is 114.66.

Joannie is certainly capable of beating Caroline. The fact is during last season's Grand Prix, Joannie's final point total beat both Carolina Kostner's and Caroline Zhang's final point total. She missed making the Grand Prix Final because she was up against the 3 best ladies during the Grand Prix (Yu-Na Kim, Mao Asada, and Yukari Nakano) in both of her events. The ISU stupidly goes by medal color/finish instead of final points total to qualify for the Grand Prix Final. Joannie was 4th best in the final point standings.

I wouldn't underestimate any of these top ladies.

gocaroline · Oct 19, 2008

Thanks Feraina! "Plus given the botched scoring of Zhang at US National's last season, it's really hard to believe that USFSA favors her over anyone else. She barely made it back to JW as the defending champion, there were even suggestions that Alex Gilles, the junior champion should go instead of her."

I can't figure out how USFSA favors CZ, since last national championship was brutal for CZ with her scores for both short and long. And I strongly feel judges in USA really love Mirai from the way they judged her program. Though it's just my impression, I don't think there is anything to do with USFSA. Both skaters are my favorites, but I am more rooted for CZ since I feel she got very harsh judging last season.

chnfs · Oct 20, 2008

The very recent photo of Zhang with three Chinese skaters at their training rink. Zhang seems to have a huge growth spurt if you compare her height with those Chinese girls including Bingwa geng's.

http://1872.img.pp.sohu.com.cn/images/blog/2008/10/20/9/0/11dbf8058ceg214.jpg

More pictures of them training under Mingzhu Li.
http://skateangel.blog.sohu.com/

cera · Oct 20, 2008

well, in the photo of caroline with the other skaters, the one where she is wearing the purple jacket, she is the only one wearing skates while the others are wearing sneakers...so, although i do think she is taller, she is not that much taller than the others.

ChrisH · Oct 20, 2008

So the young lady to Caroline's right and wearing necklaces in several of the photos is Bingwa Geng? She does look like the same Bingwa Geng who appeared on the kiss&cry stage at World Juniors. Bingwa looks so much bigger and older in the pictures without Caroline. From their ISU bios, Caroline is a little over 3 inches taller and about 8 months older than Bingwa.
http://www.isufs.org/bios/isufs00009232.htm
http://www.isufs.org/bios/isufs00010418.htm

I still think that Caroline's thighs are thicker than they were last year. Yet Bingwa's thighs look just as thick and her calves are thicker. :biggrin:

Bingwa's upper body looks stronger than Caroline's too. I'm still surprised that Bingwa didn't get a 2nd JGP assignment.

Anyways, apparently Caroline isn't doing all of her off-ice training by herself. And some of her running may be stationary. I imagine that training in a small group would help in avoiding injuries.

Caroline is an avid reader. I wonder how much of her off-ice training does she control. I recall reading that Caroline doesn't always do what Mingzhu Li has planned for her skating sessions. I think that it would be good if Caroline is applying herself to her off-ice training too.

Sdongxie · Oct 20, 2008

ChrisH said:
I'm still surprised that Bingwa didn't get a 2nd JGP assignment.

Because she was preparing to train abroad in US in September. And she and her two teammates came to LA since mid-September.

vlaurend · Oct 20, 2008

chnfs said:
The very recent photo of Zhang with three Chinese skaters at their training rink. Zhang seems to have a huge growth spurt if you compare her height with those Chinese girls including Bingwa geng's.

http://1872.img.pp.sohu.com.cn/images/blog/2008/10/20/9/0/11dbf8058ceg214.jpg

More pictures of them training under Mingzhu Li.
http://skateangel.blog.sohu.com/

Caroline is always the only one wearing skates when she's in pictures with other skaters! :laugh:

The girl is known for never taking her skates off. Skates add about 5 inches. I've seen Caroline recently and she looks about 5'1" (5'2" at the very most).

zephyrskates · Oct 20, 2008

Just to add fuel to this fire, the main page of the 2009 world figure skating championships is showing Zhang's pearl spin. Right?

http://www.isuworlds2009.com/

iceminx · Oct 20, 2008

zephyrskates said:
Just to add fuel to this fire, the main page of the 2009 world figure skating championships is showing Zhang's pearl spin. Right?

http://www.isuworlds2009.com/

that's not Caroline, that's Mirai.

Tinymavy15 · Oct 20, 2008

zephyrskates said:
Just to add fuel to this fire, the main page of the 2009 world figure skating championships is showing Zhang's pearl spin. Right?

http://www.isuworlds2009.com/

If that is meant to be Caroline's pearl, they did a bad job. The position the skater is in on the homepage looks like a catchfoot layback...like the one bebe can do. The skater looks far more mature than Caroline... i don't think it is supposed to be her.

iceminx · Oct 20, 2008

chnfs said:
The very recent photo of Zhang with three Chinese skaters at their training rink. Zhang seems to have a huge growth spurt if you compare her height with those Chinese girls including Bingwa geng's.

http://1872.img.pp.sohu.com.cn/images/blog/2008/10/20/9/0/11dbf8058ceg214.jpg

More pictures of them training under Mingzhu Li.
http://skateangel.blog.sohu.com/

Who are the Chinese girls?
I like Bingwa Geng, but I liked BInshu Xue a little better...

Tinymavy15 said:
If that is meant to be Caroline's pearl, they did a bad job. The position the skater is in on the homepage looks like a catchfoot layback...like the one bebe can do. The skater looks far more mature than Caroline... i don't think it is supposed to be her.

The dress is from Mirai's junior year exhibition...

feraina said:
Plus given the botched scoring of Zhang at US National's last season, it's really hard to believe that USFSA favors her over anyone else. She barely made it back to JW as the defending champion, there were even suggestions that Alex Gilles, the junior champion should go instead of her.

*horrified* :eek:

ITA agree about the botched scoring though.

PolymerBob · Oct 20, 2008

My belief is that the USFSA consideres Caroline the best lady we have right now. Yes, her scoring at Nationals was screwed up, but that appears to have been a mistake. Caroline has a habit of faltering at National competitions, and shining at international ones. In fact, of the 6 competitions she is listed as having won, 5 of them have been international.

oleada · Oct 21, 2008

I wish she'd focus more on fixing her jump technique and her flutz before adding more triple-triple combos. I think that would help her out more in the long run. Oh well.

cera · Oct 21, 2008

zephyrskates said:
Just to add fuel to this fire, the main page of the 2009 world figure skating championships is showing Zhang's pearl spin. Right?

http://www.isuworlds2009.com/

haha...I don't think it's caroline because i don't recall her pearl spin being with one hand in the air.

feraina · Oct 21, 2008

zephyrskates said:
Just to add fuel to this fire, the main page of the 2009 world figure skating championships is showing Zhang's pearl spin. Right?

http://www.isuworlds2009.com/

That looks like the pose of Mirai's catch-foot layback:
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22833132/

Caroline does her pearl with both hands on the blade, and also typically more stretch in the free leg.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Caroline_zhang_grand_prix_2007_lp_1.jpg

As for that dress, it looks similar to one of Mirai's exhibition dresses from 2007, but not identical:
http://www.daylife.com/photo/07XIarA4HJ30P

But anyway, this photo looks like an artist's impression of a beautiful figure skater, and the facial features are obscured deliberately so as not to represent any particular skater. It's not even clear right now who will make Worlds '09 within the very competitive ladies' field in the U.S.

feraina · Oct 21, 2008

oleada said:
I wish she'd focus more on fixing her jump technique and her flutz before adding more triple-triple combos. I think that would help her out more in the long run. Oh well.

That article might be a bit outdated, or plain incorrect wrt her jumps layout. She repeated the loop instead of the lutz in her Golden West LP. She says in her own words that she wants to work with what she has and make each element better. It sounds like mostly what she's doing is improving on her core strength, which is probably even more helpful to her than fixing any one type of jump. More core strength will help her jump higher and rotate faster, it would also allow her to skate with more power and speed and also become more expressive with each move. Last season, her flutzes and downgrades got a lot of attention, but actually it was the low component scores that hurt her the most (for instance, she had the highest TES in the SP and the 3rd highest TES at GPF last year).

Also, two skaters from her rink have mentioned that she's been practicing 3S-3R over the summer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMkN-b5zO4I
That makes a lot more sense than 3Z-3R.

It's not very practical to expend all that training time and competitive stamina on a second 3-3 which is guaranteed -GOE and at risky for downgrades (did Mao manage to get both 3-3's in her LP ratified last season?).

Zhang Hopes to Improve on Grand Prix Success

AdamFan

feraina

feraina

Mathman

museksk8r

gocaroline

chnfs

Match Penalty

cera

ChrisH

Sdongxie

vlaurend

zephyrskates

iceminx

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

iceminx

PolymerBob

oleada

cera

feraina

feraina

Similar threads

Connect with us