Racist/Offensive Comment?

Ptichka said:

A Russian friend recently admitted to me that to her (a gentile), the word "еврей", a perfectly legit word for "Jew", sounds like a swear word.

Click to expand...

I thought I heard that was no longer the case in Russia.

Tonichelle said:

I don't think Afro-American is kosher these days... black seems to be the 'in thing.'

Click to expand...

Not really. If one is more astute in the arts and letters one will find that black is less used. Even the justice system does not use Black, and if they can help it, will not use Black or White, just the names of the individuals. That seem just fine to me.

Mathman said:

I was taught as a child that it was bad to refer to someone as "a Jew," and the correct term was to say that he or she was "Jewish."

Click to expand...

I think the questionable phrase was: is he a Jewish American or an American Jew? There is a difference between those phrases.

As Oscar Hammerstein wrote in South Pacific. "You have to be taught". It's not inherited to be prejudiced.

Joesitz said:

Not really. If one is more astute in the arts and letters one will find that black is less used. Even the justice system does not use Black, and if they can help it, will not use Black or White, just the names of the individuals. That seem just fine to me.

Click to expand...

someone might want to tell that to Obama's camp, then... because he's the first "black" president... or "African-American" president... not "AFRO-American"

I am pretty sure that "African American" became the preferred tem during the 1980s (BTW, "Afro-American" dates back a century before that, but was abandoned in favor of "colored," Negro, and then Black, before making a comeback in the 1970s.)

Jesse Jackson is credited with spreading the new lingo "African American" when he ran for the Democratic nomination for Presdent in 1984. Supposedly, "African American" was considered more like how we usually speak about other people. "Italian Americans," rather than "Italo-Americans." "Chinese Americans," not "Sino-Americans," etc.

can I just be an American-American? I was told I can't be an Alaskan-American because I'm not "native"... and German-Irish-English-American takes too long... besides, I've only ever been to the Epcot version of those countries.

I actually have a friend who calls herself Caucasian-American

*shrugs* I honestly don't see what the big deal is to claim ancestory from another country (if you think about it whether you believe evolution or creation or some other idea of how humans came to be we're all from the middle east/asia... if you really wanted to get picky)

I get why the African-Americans do it - after all most of their ancestory didn't move here of their own free will... but I don't think it's fair to label everyone like that. My mom's best friend hates saying African-American, she says she's black (actually she says she's just a very tan white person because her family tells her she's not black lol).

people are what they are, I don't think one label satisfys everyone. I'm American, I'll just leave it at that (I'm also Alaskan depending on the debate lol)

I think at the moment Black, African America, and "person of color" are all fine. Black has a little more "street" in it, African American is middle of the road, and person of color is kind of hoity-toity.

But, like Tony says: just being an American is just fine whatever.

Why is a "Jew" offensive whereas a "Jewish person" is not? I've heard of it before but I don't know the reason.


Regarding Asian versus Asian-American, the residents of Asian decent in the US include a large number of immigrants who are not Americans.



How about White, Caucasian, and European American?

White Americans refer to those who have origin from Europe, North Africa, or Middle East.

Caucasian race refers to those who have origin from Europe, North Africa, Southwest Asia and South Asia.

European Americans refer to those who have origin from Europe. Though less common, "Middle-East Americans" is also used.

Not only we can't necessarily use them interchangeably, but also a major difference is that the first two refer to physical characteristics or "racial" category whereas the last one refers to a region of origin. "White" seems a companion piece of "Negro" / "Black." The middle one also refers to "race." The last ones are similar to "Asian American," "Hispanic American," "African American" etc. I like the last ones the best for the reasons that I mentioned earlier.

Bennett said:

BTW, why is a "Jew" offensive whereas a "Jewish person" is not? I've heard of it before but I don't know the reason.

Click to expand...

I think it is because Jew is a noun and Jewish is an adjective. Nouns have a "name-calling" connotation.

You are a liberal! (Off with your head, you scoundrel, you!)

You are liberal. (Let's sit down and discuss our political philosophies.)

Mathman said:

I think it is because Jew is a noun and Jewish is an adjective. Nouns have a "name-calling" connotation.

You are a liberal! (Off with your head, you scoundrel, you!)

You are liberal. (Let's sit down and discuss our political philosophies.)

Click to expand...

Hmmm, I do not yet to understand why name calling of "Jew" could be offensive. Is it like what Doris said about the name calling of "Japanese" during WWII?


Let's take another example.

"He is an Asian" versus "He is Asian".

"He is a Japanese." vs. "He is Japanese."

The use of noun may indicate that the person is a member of Asia/Japan (i.e., having nationality etc) whereas the use of adjective may indicate that a person has an Asian/Japanese origin (broader). As a person who falls into both categories, neither sounds offensive to me. If I were an Asian/Japanese-American, I might prefer the latter though.


Back to the Jew versus Jewish question, would a "Jew" be offensive because of their history not having had their own country and not having treated as a full member of the society/country where they had lived? Then the use of noun may have emphasized that they constituted a group membership that may have been seen different and separate from the others.


How about these?

He is a Black. vs. He is Black/black.
He is a White vs. He is White/white.

Bennett said:

Hmmm, I do not yet to understand why name calling of "Jew" could be offensive. Is it like what Doris said about the name calling of "Japanese" during WWII?


Let's take another example.

"He is an Asian" versus "He is Asian".

"He is a Japanese." vs. "He is Japanese."

The use of noun may indicate that the person is a member of Asia/Japan (i.e., having nationality etc) whereas the use of adjective may indicate that a person has an Asian/Japanese origin (broader). Yet, neither sounds offensive to me. If I were an Asian/Japanese-American, I might prefer the latter though.

Click to expand...

Adjectives do not stand alone, and when combined with other nouns, somewhat mitigate "harsh" sound. Like "she's a Japanese student" or "he's the first African-American president". When used as nouns otoh, you could say "Hey you, Japanese!", which is not exactly a treat for ears.

Joesitz said:

But, like Tony says: just being an American is just fine whatever.

Click to expand...

It can't be so where, in the reality, it demands to know the origions. Even in school registration forms, there would be a part to ask to fill in the race: White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Other. It was new to me when I first came to US. I didn't recall to do that in Canada.

Wrlmy said:

Adjectives do not stand alone, and when combined with other nouns, somewhat mitigate "harsh" sound. Like "she's a Japanese student" or "he's the first African-American president". When used as nouns otoh, you could say "Hey you, Japanese!", which is not exactly a treat for ears.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you for explaining it so well.

Conversely, a noun standing alone invites an unspoken adjective. You dumb Swede. You stingy Scotsman. You drunken Irishman.

jennylovskt said:

It can't be so where, in the reality, it demands to know the origions. Even in school registration forms, there would be a part to ask to fill in the race: White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Other. It was new to me when I first came to US. I didn't recall to do that in Canada.

Click to expand...

I don't have a problem saying "I'm white" that's different than teh whole

"I'm Irish-American" (Etc)

yeah 200 years ago my family was in Ireland. Several generations have passed since then. I'm not Irish American. I'm an American. Period. THIS is the origin of ME. I am not connected to Ireland in anyway - or Germany (which is what most of my ancestory is from) - Or England... last I checked I'm not in Europe. Not that there's anything wrong with Europe but I'm from here and I'm happy to just be American. I don't think that makes it 'wrong' - do any other countries come off saying I'm "Chinese-German" ? To me that just sounds weird. "African German"... hmmm?

My family had a choice in coming here, most black families that are here now have ties to a very dark part of history and that's how they entered the US. I can understand their want/need to tie back to wherever their bloodline originates. And, in the same beat, I'm fine with an Irish American being proud of where they come from. I just don't have that need.

As I said before if we want to be picky on ancestory we're all Middle Eastern/Asian/Afrian descent anyway.

Mathman said:

Conversely, a noun standing alone invites an unspoken adjective. You dumb Swede. You stingy Scotsman. You drunken Irishman.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, I think that your examples are more to do with the usage. But a noun "Irish" is a neutral word, isn't it? If it is used in a negative context, it will become an insult. Yet, I find it hard to imagine that "He is an Irish" (Instead of "Hey you, Irish") could be an insult.

When being an Irish is a less relevant characteristic to be used in the conversation, "He is an Irish student / president" would be preferred to "He is an Irish." Perhaps more often than not, nationality and race/ethnicity are not the primary characteristic of a person to define them in a given subject topic. In such cases, "an Irish" may attract too much more attention to their race/ethnicity and/or nationality than necessary. It would be therefore more refined to acknowledge that people are more than race/ethnicity or nationality by avoiding such a usage.
Yet, is it insulting to say "an Irish" in these cases? I do not think so. Perhaps it may sound less refined, but I would not find it offensive/insulting because "an Irish," after all, sounds a neutral word to me.
Furthermore, there are a lot of other occasions where the reference to nationality, ethnicity, and race is more relevant.

I would feel insulted if "He/She is a Japanese" were considered to be an insult and people feel pressured to avoid saying so. Then it seems as if being a Japanese by itself were a bad thing. For this reason, I had a hard time understanding why "He is a Jew" by itself could be an insult and "He is Jewish" is preferred. It is understandable in the historical context; but I wonder if it is still the case now. When my prof said "I am a Jew" in a class, he sounded neutral or proud.

BTW, Toni, I think that in a racialized society like the US, it is not only a matter of self-claimed identification, but also the way the society at large imposes a certain racial/ethnic group membership that affects your life experiences. It's always both way interactions, inwards and outwards. Feeling "just an American" cannot be a reality for some other groups.

so if a black person also felt that way that they're "just an American" would that stick with your theory?

The Irish were not well liked in most of the US history and in some sections of the country they still aren't...

same with Germans... after all "we" (because of my last name I even got it some here at the college. I was always pointed out as one of those. Nevermind my family left the area well before that time in history) kill those of the Jewish race...

For a while you didn't brag about your English heritage either

every part of the world gets its share of antis... *Shrugs*

Tonichelle said:

so if a black person also felt that way that they're "just an American" would that stick with your theory?

The Irish were not well liked in most of the US history and in some sections of the country they still aren't...

same with Germans... after all "we" (because of my last name I even got it some here at the college. I was always pointed out as one of those. Nevermind my family left the area well before that time in history) kill those of the Jewish race...

For a while you didn't brag about your English heritage either

every part of the world gets its share of antis... *Shrugs*

Click to expand...

I said it's both ways because we always have structural constraints and our active will at hand. The balance between the two, however, is always relative. Some are under greater constraints than others.

Yes, every part of the world, we may get a share of antis. But in the contemporary US, being White American affects one's life less negatively than otherwise.

Maintaining the "just an American" self-identity would take more efforts if you are under greater social constraints because of your race/ethnicity in a racialized society like the US.

I have an older female White friend who married to an African-American man like several decades ago. Nobody attended their wedding. They have always claimed to be "(just) an American" in every Census survey. For them, it has been a strong statement of their subjective identity against the social reality that tells them otherwise.

Tonichelle said:

can I just be an American-American? I was told I can't be an Alaskan-American because I'm not "native"... and German-Irish-English-American takes too long... besides, I've only ever been to the Epcot version of those countries.

Click to expand...

You could be European-American?

Tonichelle said:

*shrugs* I honestly don't see what the big deal is to claim ancestory from another country (if you think about it whether you believe evolution or creation or some other idea of how humans came to be we're all from the middle east/asia... if you really wanted to get picky)

Click to expand...

To be honest it's a bit of a joke on our side of the pond especially around St Patrick's day at the number of Americans claiming to be Irish because someone so removed from now, Y generations ago was Irish!

jennylovskt said:

It can't be so where, in the reality, it demands to know the origions. Even in school registration forms, there would be a part to ask to fill in the race: White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Other. It was new to me when I first came to US. I didn't recall to do that in Canada.

Click to expand...

That was also news to me. In UK equal opportunities surveys you have no "hispanic" option - you tick caucasian. It was only having relatives live in the US that made me aware of the fact that being from South American meant you were not "white" in the US!

Bennett said:

Hmmm, I think that your examples are more to do with the usage. But a noun "Irish" is a neutral word, isn't it? If it is used in a negative context, it will become an insult. Yet, I find it hard to imagine that "He is an Irish" (Instead of "Hey you, Irish") could be an insult.

Click to expand...

To be honest I think it's more a linguistic thing - "An Irish" depersonalises it, which makes it seem harsh and/or negative. Without the "he" or "she", it also makes it neutral (neither female nor male) and therefore an "it" which is a way of insulting someone. Saying "It didn't even bother to wipe it's feet when it came in" adds a layer of insult to "S/he didn't even bother to wipe his/her feet when s/he came in". "It" is more used towards an animal.

"He is an Irish" is simply not said (i'm not sure if gramatically it is correct either). He is Irish but you cannot be "an Irish". No-one would ever introduce themselves as "I am an Irish" or "I am an English" though strangely enough doing that in my head i've realised that you would say "I'm an American". :scratch: Now i've just confused myself!

Tonichelle said:

I don't think that makes it 'wrong' - do any other countries come off saying I'm "Chinese-German" ? To me that just sounds weird. "African German"... hmmm?

Click to expand...

I think i've mentioned before in other threads that we don't do that in the UK. We don't have anglo-africans or african-english. Heck the majority of people to whom that "label" attaches are a darn slight more "English" than I can claim to be - they were born here whereas I wasn't! I think i've said before that labelling like that migh not happen in Europe because there are so many countries in such a relatively close proximity that it is fairly likely that most people are mix of different European countries.

Then you also get into the whole debate with people who don't like to be "British" but assert the fact they are "English", "Northern Irish", "Scottish" or "Welsh", this is often coupled with some negativity towards the English. That's when i bow out and say i'm just foreign!

Ok so i have another question - what is WASP? I assume it's an acronym? I've heard used in American tv shows and films and i've never understood, but assume the W is white, and i think it's always been used in the context of a middle/upper class person.

Ant