Dance Free - Please use this thread for comments and PBP

dorispulaski · Dec 15, 2008

Well, Klimova and Ponamarenko were skating 20 years ago (the 1988/1989 season). And Usova & Zhulin had already been seen at Europeans. So I took it as every Russian dance team since B&B, K&P, A&S and U&Z were not imaginative innovators. That would include:

Grishuk & Platov
Krylova & Ovsiannikov
Lobacheva & Averbukh
Navka & Kostamarov
Domnina & Shabalin
Khokhlova & Novitski

And frankly while I like K&N, I don't think any on that list were as good as K&P, U&Z and A&S (including G&P). OTOH, I like all of them better than I ever liked B&B

In fact, you could take (and I indeed took) his statement as huge statement of love for K&P :love:

whom I also like a lot better than almost any of the teams that have skated in the last 20 years from any country.

demarinis5 · Dec 15, 2008

Thanks for the quote regarding Isabelle, I did not now she was sick too.
To perform at the caliber while being ill is commendable. What a fighter she is.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 15, 2008

mycelticblessing said:
His comment insinuates, that every single Russian team since Bestmianina and Bukin are cheap knock-offs. And that is not at all fair. There have been great Russian dancers ever since. As with N/K, they may be ''horrible'' in your opinion, but they deserved the OGM.

I think he means that there is a 'Russian Look' to these dance teams to which I agree. First of all the Russians are par excellence in technique, and that makes for high scoring technical. But, secondly, they also seem to me to have found a model like method of using dramatic portrayals which are also high scoring. Judges seem to like that. I think that may be the reason they seem to some fans, including me, that they all look similar in their overall dancing. There are exceptions, of course, N&K definitely, although they too, can be hammy.

For me, I like Skate Dance to show the more simple emotions without hystrionics But the stage has been set for hystrionics and that will win especially if the technical is excellent. JMO

Ptichka · Dec 15, 2008

The first Russian ice dance champions were rather traditional, such as Pakhomova & Gorshkov. Then in the 80's two distinct ice dancing schools developed. One was Tchaikovskaya's and emphasized good technique; Natalya Dubova, once she became an elite coach, really brought up that one with compulsories second to none. The other was Tarasova's, which emphasized theatrics and drama, and did its best to cover up technical faults with skillful choreography. Which one you like is subjective. While most Western fans much prefer Dubova's star pupils of Klimova & Ponomarenko, I more enjoy Tarasova's Bestemianova & Bukin.

dorispulaski · Dec 15, 2008

Ptichka, I would have said that P&G were anything but traditional, because they changed the tradition, which would have been set by the British school of ice dance (Courtney Jones et. al.) P&G actually put a story/emotion into their performances, particularly I think Masquerade Waltz and their tangoes.

Of course, nowadays, P&G are traditional... :rock:

Pre P&G performances used to be criticized as being too Sladky & Sladky-ish (the pair that are connected with the Yankee Polka)

Tonichelle · Dec 15, 2008

yay for the Yankee Polka!!!!!! :clap:

dorispulaski · Dec 16, 2008

Ptichka said:
The first Russian ice dance champions were rather traditional, such as Pakhomova & Gorshkov. Then in the 80's two distinct ice dancing schools developed. One was Tchaikovskaya's and emphasized good technique; Natalya Dubova, once she became an elite coach, really brought up that one with compulsories second to none. The other was Tarasova's, which emphasized theatrics and drama, and did its best to cover up technical faults with skillful choreography. Which one you like is subjective. While most Western fans much prefer Dubova's star pupils of Klimova & Ponomarenko, I more enjoy Tarasova's Bestemianova & Bukin.

While I'm thinking about it, would you say that one reason for the 15 year lack of enthusiasm for Russian ice dancers in Western fans, post K&P, would be due to the failure of Dubova to continue on as a force in Russian dance?

I have never liked B&B. I made a concerted effort, back when I first began to collect skating videos, to assemble a B&B collection, something I also did for other dancers I had failed to appreciate, but who had loyal fans. I felt that obviously, I was missing something, and I needed an education, for sure. And sure enough, I gained a better appreciation of K&P (whom I already liked quite a bit) and gained some appreciation for G&P, Fusar-Poli/Margaglio, and Moniotte and Lavanchy.

However, B&B was the only couple for whom I could never find much to like about, other than some of their CD's and oddly enough, I quite liked their much maligned Rasputin pro performance. Please recommend what you feel are their best 3 programs for someone trying to learn to appreciate them? If you would take the time, please tell me what is great about those 3 performances, in your opinion?

lmarie086 · Dec 16, 2008

I was watching some of the FDs again and while watching D/W I realized there's something missing. They illustrate the love story quite well IMO, but the betrayal is still somewhat lacking. D/W present it very innocently, but I don't know, I'm missing something.

Ptichka · Dec 16, 2008

To me, it's most of their programs of mid-to-late 80's - Carmen, Variations on Paganini, Adagio, Polovetsian Dances. I honestly cannot pinpoint to what it is I love so much about them. I guess it's just the overall package - the raw emotion that I feel emanating from them, sending goosebumps down my back. Of Tarasova's teams, the only other one that I felt it from were G&P.

~tapdancer · Dec 16, 2008

lmarie086 said:
I was watching some of the FDs again and while watching D/W I realized there's something missing. They illustrate the love story quite well IMO, but the betrayal is still somewhat lacking. D/W present it very innocently, but I don't know, I'm missing something.

Interesting you should say this. I read a post over at FSU on the comp thread and the poster talked about the second part of D/W's FD and in particular the midline step sequence which must be skated in hold. The poster felt that the music would have been expressed better with a no touching ss, and even in hold it would be more effective in the style that A&P used in "Man in the Iron Mask". They described that as A&P virtually fighting one another to good effect. I have to agree with this. The second part of the program is supposed to be angry, as Delilah betrays him and sacrifices their love. I really like the step sequence but I think some more interesting choreography there would help. Not sure what Igor and Marina could do there but there does seem to be some tension missing in the second part. Not that I don't love it but there's always room for improvement and I'm really wanting D/W to get some PCS love!

lmarie086 · Dec 16, 2008

^ They need to work in conflict somehow. Right now the Bacchanale music is doing most of their work for them, because it's so powerful. But D/W need to interpret it more, right now they're just kind of skating on top of it. They can work portrayal into the expression somehow; show them resisting each other in the hand holds...does that make sense? :laugh:

~tapdancer · Dec 17, 2008

lmarie086 said:
^ They need to work in conflict somehow. Right now the Bacchanale music is doing most of their work for them, because it's so powerful. But D/W need to interpret it more, right now they're just kind of skating on top of it. They can work portrayal into the expression somehow; show them resisting each other in the hand holds...does that make sense?

Definitely makes sense. Just look at the way A&P did it in "Man in the Iron Mask"...the tension needs to be there. And since that's the only element D/W got a Level 3 for, I think that's where Igor and Marina need to be looking to make some improvements for them. And D/W need to bring out the betrayal more. Meryl said they didn't want to be cliche by her grabbing at his hair or "clipping" it and I agree with that, but they could still have some choreographic effect in their step sequence that portrays the betrayal better, right now they still seem too "together"...Meryl needs to be rejecting him more, know what I mean?

mycelticblessing · Dec 18, 2008

~tapdancer said:
And D/W need to bring out the betrayal more. Meryl said they didn't want to be cliche by her grabbing at his hair or "clipping" it and I agree with that, but they could still have some choreographic effect in their step sequence that portrays the betrayal better, right now they still seem too "together"

I'd laugh myself to death if they had done a part with her ''clipping his hair''. Their program is really in two halves though. They seem to do all the acting and portrayal of the story in ''Mon cœur s’ouvre à ta voix'', then attack the technical elements in ''Bacchanal''. Even so, this is one of the most beautiful FDs I've ever seen.

missysays · Dec 18, 2008

The Man in the Iron Mask is one of my all time favorite FD's. But I noticed when I re-watched it how clean and clear the choreography could be and how Marina and Gwendal were able to develop a move to its fullest intent with a beginning middle and end in a way that skaters under COP are not allowed the time to do. For example, their beautiful couple's spin that had only one closed position could be powerful and centered because they didn't need to worry about pulling Marina's boot to her head or change into 3 plus positions all within a certain time limit. And the interesting fighting movements that they could portray with their upper bodies was because they could do some difficult steps and then rest a little bit by skating on two feet and throwing in a dramatic upper body tussle. :biggrin:

Something none of the skaters have the luxury of in this day of continuous step sequences etc. I'm not completely bemoaning COP but I think there's a difference between what can be achieved.

Though I understand the comments regarding a little bit more explicit storytelling in the choreography of the second half. Though I wonder realistically how much more can they really do.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 19, 2008

lmarie086 said:
^ They need to work in conflict somehow. Right now the Bacchanale music is doing most of their work for them, because it's so powerful. But D/W need to interpret it more, right now they're just kind of skating on top of it. They can work portrayal into the expression somehow; show them resisting each other in the hand holds...does that make sense?

Maybe they are having problems with the timing of the music. It does vary. No?

casken · Dec 20, 2008

IMO, the problem with D&W's FD, and a lot of Shpilband/Zueva FDs, is that outside of a few nice highlight moves here and there (the low swinging move at the beginning of the program, and the move where she supports him with his legs fully extended to the ice), the in between choreography is too generalized and slapped together looking. There's a lot of grabbing and holding on to eachother instead of thoughtful holds and connections, and a lot of running on toes and choppy half strokes to get back into position with each other. Compare to DelSchoes, Faiella&Scali, or even Crone&Poirier this season all who have FDs where every connection, step, and even each cross over is there for a reason.

Too me it looks like Shpilband/Zueva choreograph programs by spending most of the time on the elements and where to place them, and then just slapping together everything that goes in between. I'm not saying that's what they actually do, just that's the impression I get from the programs they choreograph. I'm rarely impressed or given a lasting impression of the program outside of the elements themselves.

This has always been my criticism of B&A under Shpilband/Zueva, and it's also of D&W. Great elements and great performance to a generic and empty program.

Dance Free - Please use this thread for comments and PBP

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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Gold for the Winter Prince!

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