Mens lp

Buttercup said:

waxel, I'm all for Johnny trying Buttle as a choreographer! I'm not sure if they get along or not, does anyone know?

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I believe Johnny's said many nice things about Jeffrey Buttle on many occasions. How he respects his talent and stuff. I can't recall Buttle saying anything about any other skater in an interview, but it's probably because I have never followed his career all that closely.

In 2007, however, Johnny wrote on his site he didn't understand how he lost to Jeffrey Buttle in the LP at Worlds, since he'd made less mistakes. And that they put Buttle ahead of him because of Canada needing three spots the following season.

So yes, they do seem to get along, but probably were not best friends when they were both competing.

Bennett said:

I think that Johnny's choreos are very effective. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been so extremely popular worldwide without winning big international titles. Besides, I personally don't find his choreos that simple in the first place. Although Johnny may have relatively a lot of crossovers, there are other skaters with as many crossovers as Johnny who receive good PCS..

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I think much of Johnny's popularity is based on his personality rather than his skating: he's unique on and off the ice, he says outrageous (but generally true) things, and he seems very interested in other cultures and happy to learn more about traditions of other countries - his fondness for all things Russian is well known, but it looks to me like he's always trying to learn more about the places where he skates and the people who live there, and fans like this about him.

His skating is of course excellent, but there are many excellent skaters who do not enjoy the same level of fan support outside their home countries.

Buttercup said:

I think much of Johnny's popularity is based on his personality rather than his skating: he's unique on and off the ice, he says outrageous (but generally true) things, and he seems very interested in other cultures and happy to learn more about traditions of other countries - his fondness for all things Russian is well known, but it looks to me like he's always trying to learn more about the places where he skates and the people who live there, and fans like this about him.

His skating is of course excellent, but there are many excellent skaters who do not enjoy the same level of fan support outside their home countries.

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Yeah, I agree that his personality helps his popularity. He seems appreciative of fan support very much and say "Thank you" in other languages at K&C. I can understand his popularity in Russia considering how much he seems to love Russia. He also makes interesting comments. But if you are outside of the US and don't speak or read English well, his comments are hard to follow. By the time you start noticing his manners and following his comments that are translated by others, you are already a fan.

I think that the first thing that makes you someone's fan would be just falling in love with their skating. There is something very unique about his style that can appeal to some ppl who do not even know about FS very well. Whether CoP friendly or not, I think that he is a very artistic performer.

There are also other skaters who are very artistic and as popular as Johnny (e.g., Lambiel, Jeff).

Bennett said:

There are also other skaters who are very artistic and as popular as Johnny (e.g., Lambiel, Jeff).

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I don't know that Jeff was that popular globally. Not to say he wasn't appreciated, but I never got the impression he received the sort of adoration that Johnny does. My guess would be that being a very understated skater, his skating would have appealed to people who are really into figure skating rather than to more casual fans - and of course to Canadian fans . Johnny to me has a much better connection with the audience pretty much everywhere he goes.

I would expect people who go to events but maybe don't follow figure skating that closely to prefer skaters more inclined to showmanship and to expressive performances, not the quiet, subtle ones.

Buttercup said:

I don't know that Jeff was that popular globally. Not to say he wasn't appreciated, but I never got the impression he received the sort of adoration that Johnny does. My guess would be that being a very understated skater, his skating would have appealed to people who are really into figure skating rather than to more casual fans - and of course to Canadian fans . Johnny to me has a much better connection with the audience pretty much everywhere he goes.

I would expect people who go to events but maybe don't follow figure skating that closely to prefer skaters more inclined to showmanship and to expressive performances, not the quiet, subtle ones.

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One of the GS articles mentioned that he is very popular in Asia . In Japan, he has been extremely popular since his senior debut at 19 and has had lots of media coverage. The Japanese audience reacts as if they were his home crowds. I don't know much about other Asian countries because of language barriers, but I thought that there were a Korean fan site and a Chinese fan site.

He has had programs that present great showmanship such as take five and sing, sing, sing. Quiet performances like his Ave Maria Ex also can be very appealing to casual viewers of FS.

ETA: Philippe Candeloro may be another skater who had global popularity for his unique performances. His programs were not extremely complicated, but the choreos were very unique and effective. I wouldn't give him a high score on transitions, but scores for choreos and interpretations would have to be very high.

Yuna doesn't have complicated transitional steps in her LP, but receives very high PCS, too, possibly for her speed and effective choreos and superb interpretations.

I can understand the similarities of Jeff and Johnny but there are so many differences that, to me, they are two different skaters.

Johnny's technical seems to be that he is emphasing what he does best since there is no quad. Much of the lyric quality he had, is till there but he could play a little more with the audience. His early days, he did that.

Given time limits on learning a quad, I have to admire Jeremy for learning that feat at a later age than most quad skaters.

It seems to me that a skater reaches a peak in his technical abilities, and that is age related. For the skaters I've seen in GPF, a 3A is no problem. Learning quads is tough after doing so well without them. Cheers to Jeffrey.

Buttercup said:

waxel, I'm all for Johnny trying Buttle as a choreographer! I'm not sure if they get along or not, does anyone know?

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They're certainly not friends, but they do seem to be on friendly terms. Johnny and Jeff even shared a little laugh over the rather unusual looking flowers they received at the 2008 Worlds medal ceremony (it's located at 3:49): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9we9kptHVs We can see from their comments at the post-LP conference that they hold the same opinion that figure skating should be more about having the complete package (and not just the quad), which at least makes them "allies" on that front. :agree:

It would be VERY interesting to see what Jeff can do for Johnny choreographically-wise! I actually enjoy both of Johnny's programs this season, but even *I* admit that it will do him some good to try something a little different. I lurve's Johnny's skating enough that I still find him fascinating even when he's stagnating (I know, I'm totally pathetic! ), but a true "artiste" would want to challenge their limits.

In other words, they may not be buddies, but if Johnny ever phoned Jeff about his choreography services, I'm pretty sure Jeff won't hang up on him. (Well, I think Jeff's too sweet to hang up on anybody, but I would imagine he would be receptive to the idea of working with Johnny.)

Bennett said:

One of the GS articles mentioned that he is very popular in Asia . In Japan, he has been extremely popular since his senior debut at 19 and has had lots of media coverage. The Japanese audience reacts as if they were his home crowds. I don't know much about other Asian countries because of language barriers, but I thought that there were a Korean fan site and a Chinese fan site.

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Jeff is HUGE in Korea! Look at the impressive banner fans put up for him at the GPF : http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww96/scheherazade777/etc/e301fe0b.jpg If that's not true lurve, then I don't know what is!

This specific video is not available on YouTube, but Terry Gannon did say the following when he commented on Jeff's performances at the 2008 4CC: "Here's Jeffrey Buttle, and---listen to that crowd! It's like The Beatles just landed at JFK! Man! He's like a rock star here. They LOVE him in South Korea... He's enormously popular... He's not sure why, but he's mobbed everywhere he goes." They also show a clip of Jeff carrying many gifts after his LP, only to be greeted by the flower girls backstage holding dozens of bags of flowers and toys! The expression on his face was priceless!

siberia82 said:

In other words, they may not be buddies, but if Johnny ever phoned Jeff about his choregraphy services, I'm pretty sure Jeff won't hang up on him.

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I think it would be good not just for Johnny but also for Jeff's developing career as a choreographer. I'm actually all for him doing more choreo, at least to save us from the Morozov arms .

Jeff is HUGE in Korea! Look at the impressive banner fans put up for him at the GPF

Terry Gannon did say the following when he commented on Jeff's performances at the 2008 4CC: "Here's Jeffrey Buttle, and---listen to that crowd! It's like The Beatles just landed at JFK! Man! He's like a rock star here. They LOVE him in South Korea... He's enormously popular... He's not sure why, but he's mobbed everywhere he goes."

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Hmm. Ok, then, I'll admit it, Jeffrey Buttle is popular . I still get the feeling it's more universal in Johnny's case, but who knows. I must say the Korean fans seem to have a lot of love for skaters from all countries, except maybe Mao Asada. :agree: (for the teddy bear showers) (for not clapping for Mao).

Buttercup said:

Hmm. Ok, then, I'll admit it, Jeffrey Buttle is popular . I still get the feeling it's more universal in Johnny's case, but who knows.

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Although both are very beautiful, artistic skaters, Jeff may be the more understated one with greater versatility across various types of music.

The entire presentation of Johnnyness, including his extremely unique costumes and fairly-like beauty, stands out really a lot and can be powerfully addictive because you'd have probably never seen performances like his on or off ice. Nobody else could come up with the program and costume like The Swan. Whatever he skates to, there is very powerful Johnnyness. I think he has star/diva personality on the ice.

Although Jeff's programs are also all artistic, unique, original, and addictive, it may take more time to get to know Jeffness than Johnnyness. Jeff may present much greater versatility than Johnny because he can be the background as much as the star.

Just my thoughts.

Buttercup said:

I think it would be good not just for Johnny but also for Jeff's developing career as a choreographer. I'm actually all for him doing more choreo, at least to save us from the Morozov arms

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Anyone who can save us from frenzied Morosov arms will make the figure skating world a better place!

Bennett said:

Although both are very beautiful, artistic skaters, Jeff may be the more understated one with greater versatility across various types of music.

The entire presentation of Johnnyness, including his extremely unique costumes and fairly-like beauty, stands out really a lot and can be powerfully addictive because you'd have probably never seen performances like his on or off ice. Nobody else could come up with the program and costume like The Swan. Whatever he skates to, there is very powerful Johnnyness. I think he has star/diva personality on the ice.

Although Jeff's programs are also all artistic, unique, original, and addictive, it may take more time to get to know Jeffness than Johnnyness. Jeff may present much greater versatility than Johnny because he can be the background as much as the star.

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ITA with your analysis!

I look at Johnny and I see a Toller like quality.

cloudkicker09 said:

I look at Johnny and I see a Toller like quality.

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Maybe Johnny should ask him to do choreo... Now that would be cool!

Bennett, I never found Buttle's programs to be addictive; I agree he's versatile and talented, but (as you've probably read in my posts before ) I often find it hard to really get into the programs from many of the subtle, low-key guys. I need more excitement, I , and to me, a singles skater has to be the star, not the background, otherwise why is he/she alone on the ice? They're not there to blend into the background!

I think where Jeff excelled was in picking interesting music that allowed him to bring across what he could do and his personality, rather than going with the same stuff everyone does. Johnny has also done this on occasion; another skater who is good at getting music to suit his style (which is totally different from those two!) is Brian Joubert. Skaters should look to do something different, not more Toscas, Romeo and Juliets and Spartacus (ice dancers, I'm looking at you!).

I could see Fedor Andreev maybe making the 2009 Canadian World team, but winning a World medal appears to be an enormous stretch.

Andreev scored a total 180.89 (61.62, 119.27) winning the Senior Challenge. That score would have placed him 19th at Worlds 2008.

Weir's bronze medal at Worlds 2008 was won with 221.84 points. Even making top 10 would require more than 200 points.

Considering Andreev's lack of total commitment to training and competing, I just don't see him improving much in such a short time.

2000 was Andreev's peak year, when he was 7th at World Juniors, then won two gold medals in the JGP and won bronze at the 2000 JGPF. His best GP finish was 6th at Skate Canada 2001---seven years ago; he placed 11th at 2004 Skate Canada and 9th at 2003 4CC. Andreev's last international competition was at 2004 Lalique, where he placed 7th.

Because of the 5-year lag since his last international appearance, World judges are going to view the now-27-year-old Andreev as a newbie, and he won't be cut any breaks.

siberia82 said:

Johnny and Jeff... hold the same opinion that figure skating should be more about having the complete package (and not just the quad) :agree:

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I don't think anyone disagrees with that, but there is the matter of defining what this complete package should include. As I see it, skaters should look to improve not just on the things at which they are already strong at but across the board, whether it's Mao fixing her lutz, Chan getting consistent on the 3A or Brian Joubert working on his spins.

chuckm said:

I could see Fedor Andreev maybe making the 2009 Canadian World team, but winning a World medal appears to be an enormous stretch.

Andreev scored a total 180.89 (61.62, 119.27) winning the Senior Challenge. That score would have placed him 19th at Worlds 2008.

Weir's bronze medal at Worlds 2008 was won with 221.84 points. Even making top 10 would require more than 200 points.

Considering Andreev's lack of total commitment to training and competing, I just don't see him improving much in such a short time.

2000 was Andreev's peak year, when he was 7th at World Juniors, then won two gold medals in the JGP and won bronze at the 2000 JGPF. His best GP finish was 6th at Skate Canada 2001---seven years ago; he placed 11th at 2004 Skate Canada and 9th at 2003 4CC. Andreev's last international competition was at 2004 Lalique, where he placed 7th.

Because of the 5-year lag since his last international appearance, World judges are going to view the now-27-year-old Andreev as a newbie, and he won't be cut any breaks.

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Thee of little faith.

Bennett said:

The entire presentation of Johnnyness, including his extremely unique costumes and fairly-like beauty, stands out really a lot and can be powerfully addictive because you'd have probably never seen performances like his on or off ice. Nobody else could come up with the program and costume like The Swan. Whatever he skates to, there is very powerful Johnnyness. I think he has star/diva personality on the ice.

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And it is probably exactly that, that makes Weir completely predictable and boring. I respect so much more the skaters that actually put thoughts into their choreography and interpretation. Even though I'm not Buttle's biggest fan, I really appreciate the level of sophistication of his choreography. Cannot say the same for Weir.

Little faith my foot. Andreev's record speak for itself. He had one good year as a Junior skater nearly nine years ago. His Senior efforts were mediocre at best, and he's been absent from international competition for the past 5 seasons.

When he didn't make the 2008 Canadian World team, he talked about quitting competitive skating. It's only now that Buttle and Mabee have bowed out that he's decided to continue.

Andreev may have good looks, but he has neither the commitment nor the competitive drive to succeed at the highest level of international competition. He hasn't bothered to prove to the world at large that he should be taken seriously as a potential champion.

People complain about Weir and Lysacek not performing to expectations, but both of these skaters have earned a pile of medals, including GP and World medals, and they've both been in the game continuously since their Junior days.

while I agree with you, chuckm... at the same time I remember a lot of the same feelings surrounding Ryan Bradley. He was a cute face that all the girls swooned over (and I didn't see it) and he never hit full potential

then he got lucky and skated his butt off in Spokane and Johnny faltered and Ryan got the silver... it lit a fire under him and now he's knocking on the door again...

Fedor *COULD* have a similar moment, but it seems unlikely.

Yes, Ryan Bradley is another skater blessed with good looks who didn't seem to have the ambition to train consistently to make it to the top levels of skating.

But unlike Andreev, Ryan has competed at US Senior Nationals every year since 2000 except for 2005. He won medals at every JGP event where he skated, and competed in 3 JGPFs. He has competed internationally just about every year since 1998, has won two International "B" gold medals, and won his first GP medal, a silver, just this year. Bradley has skated at Senior Worlds, something Andreev has never done.

Frankly, I don't see any similarity between Buttle and Weir except that they're both lyrical skaters. Jeff is definitely a better skater between the two, probably his only weakness is the inconsistency of his jumps, but his footwork and spins are superior to the Weir's.

Artistry wise, Buttle is much more versatile. Major difference between the two is that Buttle's performance is all about the music, his touches the audiences' hearts with his accurate interpretation of the music; while Weir is all about himself, when the music fits his image and personality, like swan, it works very well, however, his style is very limited, that's why he's getting so predictable and boring.

I also prefer Buttle's programs to Weir's because they have good choreography and nice transitions, instead of tons of simple crossovers and poses between the elements. That's what makes Jeff (and now Patrick Chan) the PCS king.

I always have more respect to the skaters who are willing to stretch their limits and keep changing and improving themselves than those who prefer to play it safe and keeps repeating themselves.