Figure Skating's Three Jumping Errors and Penalties | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Figure Skating's Three Jumping Errors and Penalties

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I agree with this. I was thinking mostly of events like Worlds. Mao Asada's goal in Los Angeles in March is to win the World Championship. I do not think she is so much interested in season's bests, whether she got her step sequence up to a level four instead of a level three, or whether the Bulgarian judge gave her 7.50 instead of 7.75 in choreography. (As Michelle Kwan famously said, I don't mind a 5/4 split, as long as the 5 are for me! ;) )

Joannie Rochette's goal is to make the podium (third place ordinal or higher.)

At their nationals, their goal is to win the event, but that's not much challenge if they skate reasonably well. Straight 1s would tell them nothing. A low Transitions score, an edge call or downgrade on a jump, a lower level than expected on a spin or step sequence -- that gives a lot more useful information about what they need to fix before they go up against each other.

The two American ladies' goal is to get 6th and 7th, or 5th and 8th, or 4th and 9th. The opportuntity to get feedback from the judges about what they need to work on next year I think is farther down on their list of priorities.

Suppose a skater lands 5 triples and finishes 9th behind another skater who only completes 4. Wouldn't she want to know why? Even if she still thinks she should have placed higher, at least she wouldn't have speculate whether "the judges" didn't like her risky music choice, for example. She could see where she lost points on elements and she could also see how many judges preferred her choreography and interpretation and how many preferred those aspects of the skater ahead of her.

At Worlds, that 9th-place skater's ordinals might very well range from 15th to 4th. She'd feel good about the higher ones, dismiss the lower ones, and still all she'd know is that the judges disagreed on how she stacked up against a bunch of other skaters, with no idea why.

She might even have won a head-to-head comparison against the skater who ended up 8th and have to delve into the intricacies of the majority or OBO calculations to figure out why the official results didn't come out that way. And the reasons would be more about math than about skating. Some skaters and fans are interested in those details, some aren't. Casual viewers generally aren't.

No matter what the scoring system, the skater is going to get a placement. If the most important thing is the placement and the skater isn't much interested in how it was determined, regardless of scoring system she won't pursue the details and regardless of scoring system she'll know where the mysterious system placed her.


But very reluctantly, I have to agree with you that the judging system ought to be primarily for "Category 5" (skaters, parents and coaches.) I say reluctantly because then we do not have the right to complain, or to be surprised, when Categories one though four gradually lose interest and drift away.

Category 4 was lower-level skaters. Adult skaters or kids who never intended to be more than recreational skaters may drift away from watching elite skating if the scoring system bores or confuses them and is irrelevant to their own skating, but most would only drift away from going to the rink if they're not having fun on the ice any more. I've known plenty of skaters who put in their lesson and practice time every week but couldn't name the current world medalists -- under both scoring systems. If they watch skating on TV, they may be more interested in appreciating the skill level and interesting moves of the elite skaters rather than in following specific skaters or competitive results.

The kids with some talent who debate whether to continue to the higher levels may be influenced by the kinds of skating they see at those higher levels or how they perceive the scoring. Usually money or desire for a normal lifestyle and schedule would be the biggest reasons not to train toward those levels. Injuries or frustration that the technical requirements are getting too challenging at the higher levels would be other reasons to back off. In various eras, the forbidding technical demands might have been school figures, triple jumps, or complicated spins and steps.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
No, Yukari did not do doubles, but she did not do triples either. I think attempting to give points to partial rotations is ridiculous. It just opens the door for so much judging crap.

You've yet to provide any valid reasoning as to why it opens the door for something bad. It's not like 3Axel attempts that are just overrated 2Axels would get credit, that would still be called a double.

The only jump of Yukari's that was more than 1/4 short was the 3Axel and you do realize that an underrotated 3Axel has the same (or more) amount of total rotation as a regular Triple, right? Ignoring that effort, especially since it enhances her program, is like being iconoclastic just for the sake of it.

Speaking of the Axel, if you think rotation should only be counted in full steps, how can this jump be legal? A double axel could be called an underrotated Triple. A Triple Axel could be called an underrotated Quad. They do 2.5 or 3.5 rotations. OMG, it's not whole number! Heresy!!!!!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Speaking of the Axel, if you think rotation should only be counted in full steps, how can this jump be legal? A double axel could be called an underrotated Triple. A Triple Axel could be called an underrotated Quad. They do 2.5 or 3.5 rotations. OMG, it's not whole number! Heresy!!!!!
Good point!! and that brings up the PENALTIES. The problems as i see it is the use of the word: ATTEMPT. I'm not at all sure that is in the official rules or regulations that a jump should be judged on its Attempt.

If a skater "attempts" a lutz and instead does something else, what is it about the rest of this non-lutz jump that should be judged?

If a skater "attempts" a 3A but comes up short by a few degrees, why not judge what the skater did? He/she took off correctly; he landed on one foot and didn't fall and continued with his program. Should it not be partially credited?

I'm not condoning either ot the above errors, but the Penalties for theses errors are decidedly questionable and should be addressed.
 

tarotx

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
I've just watched some of Japan nationals and my opinion of downgrades have changed. I'm sorry but imo Mao should have won. I know she did win but not the Lp. Her jumps seemed close enough in my eye to count. Well perhaps not one of of the 3a's since I knew it would be downgraded but she seemed so on. And when Mao's on few are at her level-especially not Fumie who had small jump errors herself. Now I'm liking the idea of counting a downgrade the jump designated by the skater if it looks close on naked eye. I don't want replay at all now. I think the caller calls it a downgraded jump but the base should be the higher jump base with a forced negative goe. I think perhaps a slight downgrade gets a -1 and a huge downgrade -3 which will be up to the judges. Though If the jump is 1/2 rev or more short perhaps it should get the lower jump base with a negative goe though the judge can determined if it's -1,-2 or -3.

This is emotion talking because I haven't read the protocols yet but Mao's elements seemed better then Fumie's by a large amount. I will confess that even though I adore Fumie as a person with all my heart I've always thought of her skating as a karaoke version of Michelle Kwan's so my opinion probably has a built in bias.
 
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gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Well, I think all that UR rules and penalties are to say this message: Don't bring a new trick until you actually can do that. And I'm with this idea.
There must be reasons why jumps are defined as singles, doubles, triples and quads at first place. Not double and a half.(That is basically a double axel.) Nor double and a quater.(It just means you can't really control your revolution.) Nor double and three quaters.(But to my understanding if it is a bit more than double and three quaters, it is accepted as a triple.)
I know even after you master a double/triple jump, it takes lots of time, effort and sometimes injuries to make it a triple/quad. The way I see it, UR rules and penalties are the right way of showing respects for these time, effort and injuries.
If you didn't master a triple/quad jump yet, why not bring beautiful double/triple(with positive goe) and pratice more? Why bring them when they are not ready? Oh, right, if you are lucky enough to get it ratified by lenient callers, it can get you more points! So, do you feel lucky today? To me, an URed triple is worse than step-out, fall or hand-down because basically it is not a triple.

About UR rules and penalties, I think this is the right direction to go. And if this frustrates the audience, well, here is my experience.
At first, I also didn't really notice URed jumps. But after spending some time on watching protocols and slow-mo, now with bare eyes I do notice an URed jump most of the times. So, if they just keep showing slow-mo on every jumps and give proper commentary, it will be okay.
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
I would love love love for judging to penalize falls more... I think that if skaters knew that falls were unacceptable, they'd spend more time on their technique and landing security vs. pushing themselves to do jumps they cannot complete with Carroll's 85% in practice consistency rule.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I would love love love for judging to penalize falls more... I think that if skaters knew that falls were unacceptable, they'd spend more time on their technique and landing security vs. pushing themselves to do jumps they cannot complete with Carroll's 85% in practice consistency rule.
Yagotta believe, Falls get off easy in Singles (not Skate Dance). Much better to attempt a 3A and Fall, rather than come up short of landing.

BIG QUESTION; How did these penalties come about with different forms for scoring. Are all errors not equal in penalties, and some are just a bobble?
 
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