Figure Skaters Online's fan based interview with Phil Hersh

FSOWebmaster · Mar 21, 2009

Phil Hersh: 'Come back, Michelle and Sasha'
A healthy Nagasu may be America's best chance for a ladies medal in 2010

From the Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan scandal to the double gold medals award in pairs skating at the 2002 Olympic Winter Games, the Chicago Tribune's Olympic beat columnist and reporter Phil Hersh has seen the biggest stories in figure skating unfold from the front lines. Before leaving for the World Championships, he sat down with Figure Skaters Online to answer questions from figure skating fans on everything from the judging system to the future stars of the sport.

Amanda (Michigan, USA): Who do you pick as the World Champions this year? Do you foresee any Americans making the podium in any discipline?
Phil: At least one ice dance team will make the podium, especially with the defending champs gone. Evan Lysacek has a good shot, too. I would pick Brian Joubert, Mao Asada, Aliona Savchenko and Robin Szolkowy and whoever the judges want to win dance.

Aja (New York, USA): Phil, are you bold enough to pick the medalists for Worlds?
Phil: Why not? Joubert, Lysacek, Patrick Chan; Asada, Yu-Na Kim, Joannie Rochette; Savchenko and Szolkowy, Dan Zhang and Hao Zhang, Qing Pang and Jian Tong; Oksana Domnina and Maxim Shabalin, Meryl Davis and Charlie White, Jana Khokhlova and Sergei Novitski.

Samantha (Illinois, USA): What do you think Mirai Nagasu needs to do to be competitive nationally again? My second question is what are your thoughts on Rachael Flatt and Ashley Wagner?
Phil: Mirai needs to be healthy. Flatt is a marvelously consistent skater who needs only add some pizzazz to her programs to be a medal contender. Wagner showed at junior worlds she still lacks consistency; I thought she would go on from the excellent long program at nationals to be dazzling at junior worlds, but that did not happen.

Erin (California, USA): Phil, I think I might have a little bit of a difficult question for you. Why do Mirai Nagasu and Caroline Zhang receive all of the media attention when they are not as good as some of the other girls they are competing against? Both have serious jumping problems but are touted as the successor to Michelle Kwan. I practically overdosed on Nagasu and Zhang in the past couple years but I've only read one feature you have done on Rachael Flatt. I cannot recall anything that you've done on Ashley Wagner.
Phil: Nagasu and Zhang are the most talented skaters in that group, even if their results have yet to match their full potential. Even with its mistakes, Nagasu's long program at nationals still was more fun to watch than anyone else's.

Spun Silver · Mar 21, 2009

Well, I like old Hersh better after reading this (esp. the last line - go, Sasha!). His strong opinions seem to have a pretty broad knowledge base.

My other favorite line:

Plus, I long have been a passionate opera and classical music fan (which makes me ill over the music most skaters choose).

I don't get ill over the music, but only because I've learned to hold my nose and compartmentalize.

Medusa · Mar 21, 2009

There is little room for artistry in the new system. Period. If you consider artistry a program with major mistakes, then you have a different vision than I do. If artistry means not challenging yourself technically (no quad jump), then the sport is diminished.

R.D. · Mar 21, 2009

Thanks for sharing. Interesting read, although most of his answers are short and to the point, and often times didn't actually answer the question.

Buttercup · Mar 21, 2009

Hersh can come across as a jerk, but I generally enjoy reading his columns and Q&As due to his honesty and his perspective, which can be interesting at times. For instance, when asked about the judging system:

I liked the concept of the International Judging System, but it has become a misused joke, with negative scoring based on insufficient video evidence, so many technical demands it discourages individuality, under-valuing of quad jumps and use of the component scores (which should be called proponent scores) to prop up skaters.

After six years, it needs a thorough overhaul and, on top of that, it is too expensive. But International Skating Union President Ottavio Cinquanta simply is pig-headed about any overhaul of what was a well-intentioned idea (and one that he had discussed with me seven years before the Salt Lake scandal, which really was no scandal, because the Russians were better).

Unlike some in the media, it's not a rant about how hard it is to understand numbers and the "difficult" math of CoP (really, did so many people not understand third/fourth grade math?). It's an actual commentary on what isn't working, even if relatively brief.

I also believe he is the only NA journalist who does not think S/P should have won the gold at SLC, which is refreshing - even if one disagrees. I happen to agree with just about everything I've quoted, except for the bit about Speedy, and only on account of having no insight into Mr. Cinquanta's thought processes. And unlike Hersh, I do feel the current system is fixable.

Also, what Medusa quoted. :agree:

I just wish he could be less dismissive of the ice dance, which is the one discipline that has mostly benefitted from CoP.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 21, 2009

Spun Silver said:
I don't get ill over the music, but only because I've learned to hold my nose and compartmentalize.

You probably have seen opera or ballet more than once (like me)

What he may be saying is once you've seen the original operas and ballets, what is the point of looking at 4 minutes of cut-up excerpts on blades. The Lead Soprano and the Prima Balerina would never look that way. Since I agree with him., I have to add that fans of Great Opera and Grand Ballet must adjust to the strange renditions that skaters will do like a Mimi or Odette doing a triple salchow. I don't believe you will see that at an Opera House.

Unfortunately, no composers write music for Figure Skating, and for me, movie background music works very well for the sport.

Tinymavy15 · Mar 21, 2009

Thanks for posting. a fun read.

Mathman · Mar 21, 2009

...Salt Lake scandal, which really was no scandal, because the Russians were better.

Just as a tiny quibble, the scandal had nothing to do with who was better or who was worse, or with who deserved to win or who deserved to lose.

The scandal was that the French judge -- as she candidly admitted after the event -- voted the way her federation chief instructed her to vote, rather than on the basis of what she saw on the ice.

For this, she and Gailhauget were both sanctioned by the ISU, after an investigation during which all parties had their say. (No one else was found guilty of any wrongdoing, although suspicions still linger.)

Buttercup · Mar 22, 2009

Without going into who was better, I believe the SLC scandal had two phases: the first was the wuzrobbed reaction that made the Russians seem like unworthy winners, the second was when the story of the French judge came out. I believe Hersh was referring to the media reaction. Nobody wants corrupt judging.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 22, 2009

Mathman said:
Just as a tiny quibble, the scandal had nothing to do with who was better or who was worse, or with who deserved to win or who deserved to lose.

The scandal was that the French judge -- as she candidly admitted after the event -- voted the way her federation chief instructed her to vote, rather than on the basis of what she saw on the ice.

For this, she and Gailhauget were both sanctioned by the ISU, after an investigation during which all parties had their say. (No one else was found guilty of any wrongdoing, although suspicions still linger.)

MM - I'm tired of this exclusive French blame. It takes two to collude! Who did the French collude with? That has never been answered and I just don't want to hear the French did it all by themselves.

Cinquanta was in hot water over that scandal, and his answer was not to investigate it any further. So please mention in future, at least, that the partner in the collusion has never been revealed.

Mathman · Mar 22, 2009

^ The interesting thing is that neither the French judge nor the French federation was ever accused of collusion. The only charge ever brought against Gailhauget was that he unduely pressured his judge to vote a certain way. The only charge against LeGougne was that she allowed herself to be influenced by this pressure (and also that she did not report this pressure to the ISU.)

No one was ever charged with colluding with any other party.

So there you go -- straight from the Ethics Committee of the ISU. (But I repeat, "suspicions still linger.")

Buttercup said:
I believe Hersh was referring to the media reaction.

In context, I think you are right about Hersh's comment.

However, to me the word "scandal" ought to be reserved for skulduggery and morally disgraceful behavior. I don't think Scott Hamilton yelling, "S&P were robbed," rises to the level of a "scandal." (A "comtroversy" perhaps.)

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 22, 2009

so you are confirming that the French decided on their own to give the edge to the B&S without getting anything in return? It's a lone gunman theory you have and the reasons are not clear as the Dallas one. Is that correct?

I believe Mme L said in her confession that M Gailhauget coerced her into doing it in exchange for a vote in favor of the French dance team by another Federation. No?

Mathman · Mar 22, 2009

Joesitz said:
so you are confirming that the French decided on their own to give the edge to the B&S without getting anything in return?

I am confirming?

I am not confirming anything. I am just reporting on what the ISU decided to do with the case.

I repeat for the third time: "suspicions still linger."

It's a lone gunman theory you have and the reasons are not clear as the Dallas one. Is that correct?

No. I advanced no theory.

I believe Mme L said in her confession that M Gailhauget coerced her into doing it in exchange for a vote in favor of the French dance team by another Federation. No?

No, I don't think so.

As far as I know the only thing that Mme L actually said in her confession was that she had been pressured by Gailhauget. She also said later that she had been pressured by officials of the Canadian federation as well.

People assumed that there was a deal on between Russia and France, but I don't think anyone ever confessed to such an arrangment, and the ISU did not pursue the matter further.

PLEASE NOTE. I am not saying that I agree with the ISU's conclusions and disposition of the case. I am just reviewing what those conclusions and disposition were. :eek:

hwell:

AwesomeIce · Mar 22, 2009

His comments on Mirai and Caroline being the best of the bunch are gag-worthy. If they were the best of the bunch they would have been at the top of the podium instead of the other girls that are supposedly so inferior to Mirai and Caroline.

kyla2 · Mar 22, 2009

Comments

Hersh said they were the most talented and they are-big difference.

Buttercup, if the paying public doesn't understand the mathmatical scoring, they won't pay to see it. It's that simple. The viewing public should be able to come up with an understandable score for a performance in a couple of seconds, if not, you lose them.

Buttercup · Mar 23, 2009

kyla2 said:
Buttercup, if the paying public doesn't understand the mathmatical scoring, they won't pay to see it. It's that simple. The viewing public should be able to come up with an understandable score for a performance in a couple of seconds, if not, you lose them.

I agree - I just don't see why adding up numbers is harder to understand than ordinals. Come one, how many 6.0s were there? How many times was there confusion about the ordinals and how skaters ended up where they were? But now, if, say, Yu-Na gets a 70 in the SP, and Carolina gets 64, and Jenna McCorkell gets 51, I don't see how it's hard to figure out that Yu-Na did very well. It's really simple math.

A couple of months ago I caught some of the US figure skating championships on TV. I believe the person doing the broadcast was Nancy Kerrigan. In the parts that I watched, not once was there any attempt to explain what the skaters were doing to up the levels, what the jumps were worth, how the PCS works - nothing. In contrast, on British Eurosport they always manage to work in some bits about the system - pointing out the upper body movement in a step sequence, or a difficult entry into a lift - so the people watching can quickly figure out how the scoring works. I believe Hersh said not enough was being done by USFS to explain the scoring, and he's right. It's not hard to understand if explained properly. I find it much easier to figure out than 6.0 and ordinals. That having been said, there are things did need to be sorted out with the judging, and I hope the ISU will some day realize that.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 23, 2009

MM - Sorry. I read it as suspicion still looms and it shouldn't. I think the matter could be completed if Speedy decides to tell. But it stands to reason there was no gain for France in fixing the scoring unless France gets someone to fix it for their team. So I rule, it is more than suspicion. It is incomplete investigation.

Buttercup - We once compared the CoP scores with what would have been the 6.0 scores and the results were the same as to the placements.

antmanb · Mar 23, 2009

AwesomeIce said:
His comments on Mirai and Caroline being the best of the bunch are gag-worthy. If they were the best of the bunch they would have been at the top of the podium instead of the other girls that are supposedly so inferior to Mirai and Caroline.

Whilst i disagree with Hersh you have paraphrased what he said incorrectly - I think he referred to them being the most talented, even if their results have shown that they haven't fully realised all their talent.

In that regard similar comments could be made about skaters like Rohene Ward - easily one of the most talented skaters in the world, bar none. Sadly his competitive abilities were extremely low.

Talent without competitive/mental strength doesn't get you far in the sport, but it's valid to point out talent when you see it.

Ant

Mathman · Mar 23, 2009

Buttercup said:
I agree - I just don't see why adding up numbers is harder to understand than ordinals.

And yet, somehow, it is.

6.0 means really, really, really, really good. 5.9 means really, really, really good.

If a judge gives a skater 5.9, that means that the judge thought the performance was really, really, really good, but not really, really, really, really good.

First place ordinal means you were the best. Second place ordinal means you were second best. Third place ordinal means you were third best.

What does "I got 69.34 in the short program" mean? It means I got 2.86 points for my level three combination spin because it had four bullets, plus 5.93 (after GOE and second half bonus) for my triple flip, etc., etc, etc.

It is not that casual fans are incapable of turning to the protocols and ISU communications to learn why this skater got 69.34 points and lost, while the other skater got 71.29 points and won -- it is, rather, that they are just not that interested.

Buttercup · Mar 23, 2009

Mathman said:
6.0 means really, really, really, really good. 5.9 means really, really, really good.

If a judge gives a skater 5.9, that means that the judge thought the performance was really, really, really good, but not really, really, really, really good.

First place ordinal means you were the best. Second place ordinal means you were second best. Third place ordinal means you were third best.

It is not that casual fans are incapable of turning to the protocols and ISU communications to learn why this skater got 69.34 points and lost, while the other skater got 71.29 points and won -- it is, rather, that they are just not that interested.

But I still don't get why some viewers cannot grasp that 71.29 is more than 69.34, just like 5.8 is more than 5.5. You don't need to look up how a skater arrived at a score to understand a higher score is good. After all, under 6.0 viewers never knew what exactly went into determining the standings, either. And we still see the placement for each skater along with the score, so it's obvious where they stand in relation to each other.

I'll allow that sometimes UR calls and the like make it harder to understand why a certain performance was scored as poorer than one might expect, but this is not the argument we're seeing from some journalists; the argument basically boils down to "math hard" - "oooh, skater X got 65.43, how will I ever know what that means :eek:

?" . But the comparison of one skater's score to another's under the current system is such basic math that I can't understand how it can be viewed as confusing. Surely schools in the US aren't that bad

.

Figure Skaters Online's fan based interview with Phil Hersh

FSOWebmaster

Spun Silver

Medusa

R.D.

Buttercup

Joesitz (RIP)

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Mathman

Buttercup

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

AwesomeIce

Match Penalty

kyla2

Buttercup

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

Mathman

Buttercup

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