Is Canada out in front of the CoP learning curve? | Golden Skate

Is Canada out in front of the CoP learning curve?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It seems like Canadian skaters have been the most successful in figuring out how to extract the maximum number of points from their programs.

In the recent World Championships, if you compare Chan and Rochette to Joubert and Ando, the Canadians passed up the big tricks. Instead, their programs were constructed so that every turn of the blade got them an extra tenth of a point. In the end, like Buttle over Joubert last year, it all added up to victory.

What is it that Canadian coaches and choreographers know that the rest of the world hasn’t caught on to yet?
 

essence_of_soy

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Q. What is it that Canadian coaches and choreographers know that the rest of the world hasn’t caught on to yet?

A. Lori Nichol and David Wilson, of course.
 

oxade21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Of course, Canada is out front. They discredited the old system and invented the CoP.
 

skatingbc

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
I think Skate Canada's efforts to embrace and understand the IJS from the get-go is the main reason. The IJS was introduced in the 2003/2004 season. The system was used in Canadian Nationals starting in 2004/2005 and was used at all Skate Canada Competitive level competitions (Pre-Juve and up) ever since. From doing some checking, USFSA used the IJS at Nationals starting in the 2005/2006 season, but used 6.0 at Junior Nationals. I don't know the exact reason for the USFSA's delay, but it seems that Skate Canada took a completely different approach by pushing CoP and never looking back.

I was also just wondering, has any Canadian skater ever spoken out about the negatives of CoP?
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Q. What is it that Canadian coaches and choreographers know that the rest of the world hasn’t caught on to yet?

A. Lori Nichol and David Wilson, of course.

Actually, there is something to that. Look at the difference in Michelle Kwan's choreograohy before and after she split with Lori Nichol.
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Excellent point. During that period, only a few US skaters performed consistently well under the IJS. I count Cohen, Lysacek, Weir (for a time), and Belbin and Agosto among them. Kwan was skipping most of the Grand Prix's during that cycle and her performance at Worlds progressively declined each year. She only ever competed under IJS once at 2005 Worlds, the first year it was used at that competition, and finished fourth after finishing third the year before.

The Canadians have proven that with the right attitude, choreography and coaching, very fine programs and performances can be squeezed out consistently under IJS. Thankfully, many of those Canadians, coaches and choreographers, are sharing their expertise with skaters from other countries.

While it's true that IJS is far from perfect, the constant tilting at windmills in a vain attempt to restore the 6.0 system (press conferences, newspaper interviews, Facebook groups) is an enormous time waster. US skating wasted too much time for too long with this silliness and now there is a lot of catching up to do. The simple truth is IJS is here to stay, especially considering all the cash invested in it. The ISU can't afford another major overhaul of the sport right now.

Also remember, we still have several "residual" 6.0 skaters left in the ranks. But after next season, most of them will have moved on. I think the fluency for IJS among younger skaters will only continue and the quality of the programs will continue to develop while the system itself continues to be fine-tuned. So for the time being, maybe it's better to work actively, not just on the ice, but off it as well, to get the most out the system as it exists and tamp down the complaining.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Skate Canada has also employed the services of a Mathematician to maximize the points the skaters get in their routine:

http://www2.canada.com/sports/socce...n+national+team/1194041/story.html?id=1194041

All right! :rock: Hey, USFSA, I'm available! :laugh:

Patricia Benoit (now Patricia Chafe) is a real deal mathematician with interests in several areras of applied mathematics. She published a number of important papers in cosmology in the late 1990s, developing the subject of fluid dynamics in various mathematical models of the universe.

More recently, she has studied efficiency of deployment strategies for naval vessels, and -- I am not kidding -- a scholarly examination of the mathematics and psychology of cheating!
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Of course, Canada is out front. They discredited the old system and invented the CoP.

:laugh:

But, yes, the top Canadians have been very good about designing their programs.

Although (at the risk of sounding repetitive), Rochette's placement was more the result of bad rules than how well her program was designed. In a scoring system where doubling a triple is better than just underrotating it, she succeeded.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
All right! :rock: ...

More recently, she has studied efficiency of deployment strategies for naval vessels, and -- I am not kidding -- a scholarly examination of the mathematics and psychology of cheating!

Very cool, I guess---Canada has hired a Cheater in Chief Expert?
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Even under the 6.0 system the canadian skaters were CoP freindly. Sandu, Sale and Pellitier, Buttle, all had great basics and good use of the blades.
I am not fimiliar with the testing system in canada, but perhaps they place more emphasis on patch-like test patters to instill good basics.
Chreography and attention to the music seems more advacned there too, obviously the two top chreographers on the planet hail from canada.
 

skatingbc

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Even under the 6.0 system the canadian skaters were CoP freindly. Sandu, Sale and Pellitier, Buttle, all had great basics and good use of the blades.
I am not fimiliar with the testing system in canada, but perhaps they place more emphasis on patch-like test patters to instill good basics.
Chreography and attention to the music seems more advacned there too, obviously the two top chreographers on the planet hail from canada.

I know that the club I used to skate at, where my little sister still skates, places emphasis on learning skills (Canadian moves in the field) and dance. About 25% of Senior skaters have completed their Gold dances, and closer to 75% have completed their Gold Skills. When I skated with the club, we still did figures (only about 5 years ago!). I know they now have COP sessions offered, where the skaters learn about how to maximize points and how to play up on their strengths. These sessions are really cool because you see the skaters play around with footwork and different spin positions. They also have a stroking program in which they focus on a different skill every day. One day they'll work on power and speed, the next footwork into jumps, the next they'll work different turns, etc. I don't know how other clubs are run or where they place their emphasis, but at my club, the emphasis really is on the all-around skater.
 

gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Vert true!
Kudos to Canada!! :clap:

I like very much Joannie Rochette and her programs. I liked also Jeff Buttle programs and I'm sorry he retired, because I'm sure he would have done other interesting programs.

On the other hand I don't like Patrick Chan's style, nor his musical choices. Said that, I very much agree he was very good this season and I can't say anything negative about his skating abilities and talent and about his programs being COP friendly and succesfull.

So congratulations to both Joannie and Patrick to be able to design and perform succesfull programs under COP without big tricks! :agree:

Big tricks in COP are not useful, if you don't maximize points in all other departments as the Canadians did.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
From what I read back in the days of the new CoP discussion was that part of the training of the judges to the new system was to watch a tape of Buttle's competition showing how to score PC points. How true this is, I dunno. If it is true, then coaches may want to get a look at that tape.

I'm not convinced the PC breakdown shows more than the GoEs do. (just my stubborn streak. :biggrin:)
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
The Canadian skaters and coaches do seem to have a pretty good understanding of how to make the system work for them. This is very good for their results and, IMO, not so good for figure skating.

No, it's not bad that Canadians are doing well. Contrary to what some may think, I have nothing against Canada (I've visited. It's nice) Canadians (never met any who left a bad impression) or Canadian figure skaters (I like the current pairs teams and V/M). :)

It's great to have skaters from many different countries, including Canada, achieve success in the sport. What does bother me is that in order to do well, they have to do all this nitpicky CoP finessing that leaves me, as a viewer, absolutely cold. I don't want to have skaters do mediocre spins or have lousy basics. But on the other hand, with many of the CoP super-friendly programs, I just get the feeling that I saw something accomplished with all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed - but it's a collection of elements and moves, a checklist - not a coherent and moving whole. The impact of the program, to me, is often diminished. Perhaps in time we'll get to the point were we'll have both; right now, I'm not sure we're there yet.

This is 100% not the skaters' fault, but the fault of a system that more and more seems to be rewarding a specific style of skating instead of allowing different paths to success. As a viewer, I can appreciate what Jeffrey did and what Joannie is doing. I just can't really like it much when everyone has to be the same, and since the Canadian skaters do appear to be leading this trend, I often can't enjoy their skating.
 

skatingbc

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
As I was reading the Daily Spin on the Skate Canada website, I noticed that both Scott Davis (Vaughn Chipeur's coach) and Carol Lane (C/P's coach) are technical specialists. At my home club, the dance coach/choreographer of choice is Shae Zukiwsky, who was the technical specialist at Junior Worlds in dance. I wonder if there are many coaches who are certified as technical specialists in other countries. This is certainly an advantage to their students!
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Agreed Mathman, and excellent point skatingbc. The ability to work every detail of the rules into the competitive program seems essential when hundredths of a point matter. I was impressed (and thought it in retrospect completely intuitive) to bring on board a "mathematician" into the fold when either "monitoring" or advising on programs. The subjective overall assessment from judges familiar with programs is likely reassuring, but really, go for every little tenth of point.

Now from a viewer's perspective, wouldn't it be "nice" if the rules for garnering points could in some way mirror moves that are musical, artistically pleasing and likewise, that the rules have enough range so as to provide choreographic options - in other words, everyone not looking the same.

Clearly - I ask for waaaay too much. Oh well.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
It would nice if some of the Technical people could share their views on the CoP. It would also be nice if they mentioned how difficult or easy it is to spot wrong edge takeoffs, and underrotations.
 
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