Japanese and Korean International Relations and History

I seriously wonder where this Korea-Japan mutual hatred comes from. I know there's a tragic, violent history behind it, but the young Koreans and Japanese I've met seem past that barrier, especially having no direct experience of the period of colonization. At least at my college, I see Korean students taking Japanese, and Japanese students taking Korean and help out each other's cultural festival with genuine interest in and respect for each other's culture. Then, who are these people trolling youtube? I can't possibly imagine grannies counting rotations and throwing vitriol on anonymous website.

It's frustrating when my personal experiences diverge by such extreme degree from what I read online.

But I contend fanaticism is healthy for the sport, not so much for the board members

Wrlmy said:

I seriously wonder where this Korea-Japan mutual hatred comes from. I know there's a tragic, violent history behind it, but the young Koreans and Japanese I've met seem past that barrier, especially having no direct experience of the period of colonization. At least at my college, I see Korean students taking Japanese, and Japanese students taking Korean and help out each other's cultural festival with genuine interest in and respect for each other's culture. Then, who are these people trolling youtube? I can't possibly imagine grannies counting rotations and throwing vitriol on anonymous website.

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I honestly don't think you should take internet comments and youtubers as representative of all the Korean and Japanese youth. It simply does not work at all - I'm Korean, and my college roommate is Japanese and she's the sweetest girl ever. We get along fine (she even cheered Yuna with me ). My Korean friends get angry at Japanese apologists and Japanese government officials who contend that the Japanese colonization of Korea was somehow justified/beneficial, but they are also smart enough not to let that interfere with their interactions with Japanese people.
Sports can very easily get people heated up, and I think the internet is where that kind of emotion can explode without any social restraint whatsoever. I feel that negative feelings in particular can become exaggerated or blown up very easily. I mean, honestly. Does anyone really take youtube comments seriously? It's not just the Yuna videos; there are so many videos with douchebag comments.

bmelanie said:

I honestly don't think you should take internet comments and youtubers as representative of all the Korean and Japanese youth. It simply does not work at all - I'm Korean, and my college roommate is Japanese and she's the sweetest girl ever. We get along fine (she even cheered Yuna with me ). My Korean friends get angry at Japanese apologists and Japanese government officials who contend that the Japanese colonization of Korea was somehow justified/beneficial, but they are also smart enough not to let that interfere with their interactions with Japanese people.
Sports can very easily get people heated up, and I think the internet is where that kind of emotion can explode without any social restraint whatsoever. I feel that negative feelings in particular can become exaggerated or blown up very easily. I mean, honestly. Does anyone really take youtube comments seriously? It's not just the Yuna videos; there are so many videos with douchebag comments.

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Thank you for your comment!!

Wrlmy said:

I seriously wonder where this Korea-Japan mutual hatred comes from. I know there's a tragic, violent history behind it, but the young Koreans and Japanese I've met seem past that barrier, especially having no direct experience of the period of colonization. At least at my college, I see Korean students taking Japanese, and Japanese students taking Korean and help out each other's cultural festival with genuine interest in and respect for each other's culture. Then, who are these people trolling youtube? I can't possibly imagine grannies counting rotations and throwing vitriol on anonymous website.

It's frustrating when my personal experiences diverge by such extreme degree from what I read online.

But I contend fanaticism is healthy for the sport, not so much for the board members

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It was indeed very violent, but it is not completely a history yet. Many "comfort women" coerced by the Japanese government during WWII are still alive and waiting for a formal apology. It also doesn't help that the Japanese Prime Minister pays annual visits to the Yasukuni Shrine, where of the almost 2.5 million enshrined, 1,068 have been convicted of war crimes by a post World War II court. Many Japanese soldiers convicted unthinkably atrocious crimes against humanity in China, Korea, Taiwan and other regions in East Asia, though they were much less publicized than the the Germans and the Jewish holocaust were. Not only does the Japanese PM pay annual tribute to these "honourable soldiers", Japan has never formally admitted to or apologized for the crimes they committed during the War, despite ongoing loud demand from the countries mentioned above. And they largely avoid teaching this part of their history in their textbooks. It says a lot about the Japanese government to me, and I'm sure, to the Koreans as well.

I just really get disgusted by some bringing history, race, religion and politics to sports and to the forum like this. I have some family member who were direct victims of horrible war crime. I will tell you all the WAR were VIOLENT!!! Asia is not the only place that happened!!! Comfortwoman and camptown woman, Nanking massacre and Bodo massacres are not only tragedy of the WAR which is the biggest sin of humankind. By bringing the hatred to the sports will not solve anything. Whatever I or you feel about certain country becasue of history MUST stay out of this forum. They are all irrelevant.I really wonder if Yu-Na fans love Yu-na only because she defeated Japanese skaters. Or do they love her for her beautiful skating skills? This is really sad!!!

PROKOFIEV said:

I just really get disgusted by some bringing history, race, religion and politics to sports and to the forum like this. I have some family member who were direct victims of horrible war crime. I will tell you all the WAR were VIOLENT!!! Asia is not the only place that happened!!! Comfortwoman and camptown woman, Nanking massacre and Bodo massacres are not only tragedy of the WAR which is the biggest sin of humankind. By bringing the hatred to the sports will not solve anything. Whatever I or you feel about certain country becasue of history MUST stay out of this forum. They are all irrelevant.I really wonder if Yu-Na fans love Yu-na only because she defeated Japanese skaters. Or do they love her for her beautiful skating skills? This is really sad!!!

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Whoa, calm down there prokofiev. As far as I can tell shine brought up the subject of history because Wrlmy was wondering where the bad blood between Japan and Korea comes from, and why it's still an issue.

PROKOFIEV said:

I just really get disgusted by some bringing history, race, religion and politics to sports and to the forum like this. I have some family member who were direct victims of horrible war crime. I will tell you all the WAR were VIOLENT!!! Asia is not the only place that happened!!! Comfortwoman and camptown woman, Nanking massacre and Bodo massacres are not only tragedy of the WAR which is the biggest sin of humankind. By bringing the hatred to the sports will not solve anything. Whatever I or you feel about certain country becasue of history MUST stay out of this forum. They are all irrelevant.I really wonder if Yu-Na fans love Yu-na only because she defeated Japanese skaters. Or do they love her for her beautiful skating skills? This is really sad!!!

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Wow, what's disgusting is your attitude. It doesn't reduce what happened in East Asia to a matter-of-fact banality just because it happened elsewhere as well. Can you imagine Germans teling decendants of holocaust victims "get over it, you're not the only victims"? I imagined the young generation of East Asia would be past the ghost of the tragic history, but with people like yourself, there is still a far way to go.

Thank you shine and bmelanie for your thoughtful posts.

EXCUSE ME???????????? I am never telling any victims of war to GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!! Rather they should make sure that the tragedy should not be forgotten in order to keep the peace in the world. BUT I AM DISGUSTED BY the people who bring up history, politics, religeon and race to this forum to justify their harsh opinion displayed on the place like in you-tube..I believe this forum is to discuss about skating. If one wants to keep the memory of war tragedy alive, there are so many organization they can do more appropriately.And I will tell you that mos of the countries which exist are free of their sin. I m related to the family that was killed by Rhee government during Bodo league massacre even though they were not communists.They did not do anything wrong. They suffered from Japanese occupation just like any other Koreans. Yet Korean government killed hundreds of thousands (300.000 to 1.2million) of their own innocent people. To me, they are as bad as Japanese government. But for me writing this to support my post is irrelevant. But I will support all the skaters or any athletes in the world who work hard every day and I am wishing the day that the world without any human tragedy.

Wrlmy said:

Can you imagine Germans teling decendants of holocaust victims "get over it, you're not the only victims"?

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I can imagine several situations where I would say "Get over it". If someone talked to me about that time, I would of course at first say that I am sorry for the horrific fate of his family / his people. But if people start to sound reproachful, start to complain to me - there will always be a point where I say, that even my grandfather, who turns 80 next year, was a young teenager when the war ended. I have no problem to conduct myself with politeness and tact in other countries or here - but I never started a war, I never sympathised with fascism, my parents didn't either. The same goes for the Japanese of the last few generations.

I think that could be what Prokofiev (are you Japanese?) meant: the moment we involve politics and history in these discussions - it becomes a huge minefield. And if you belong to the "guilty" party (Japanese, Germans) you can only feel incredibly uncomfortable, because you are afraid that every opinion you have and everything you say - could be interpreted as fascistic, nationalistic etc.

Wow. Very sensitive issue is brought up.
I have to say ever since that Yuna-Mao rivalry started, that historic bad blood between Korea and Japan have mentioned quite often. So, basically the door has been wide open. Why not some insight, then? It's not like Shine made up stories or something. It's just facts.

But I don't really think that feud between those two nations have much to do with fans, though...
I mean, not every Yuna fans are Korean and not every Mao fans are Japanese. Or.... are they???

Thank you Medusa. I am only trying to say let's separate history, politics race and religion from this forum please. By we becoming one as fans of this wonderful sports, maybe we can make one more step towards the global peace.As we speak now, there are innocents people being killed under the name of "war".

goury, you are right!! I am not American, but I am a big fan of Rachael, Mirai,and Caroline. and Alissa If you would like to see historical insights from me, I cal write maybe 5000 posts here with detailed statistics!!! I do not think you want that??

But, I would like to apologize here if I was too sensitive or offended someone. Maybe I just do not want to talk about history, politics or other sensitive staffs here,I have too many mixed opinion of what happened and what is going on in the worlds. Well, I guess I am going to stay out of this topic now. Thanks everyone

PROKOFIEV said:

goury, you are right!! I am not American, but I am a big fan of Rachael, Mirai,and Caroline. and Alissa If you would like to see historical insights from me, I cal write maybe 5000 posts here with detailed statistics!!! I do not think you want that??

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If you want, why not? I mean, everybody is entitled to their opinions. If you have valid facts to support your opinion, isn't that the way to debate?

PROKOFIEV said:

BUT I AM DISGUSTED BY the people who bring up history, politics, religeon and race to this forum to justify their harsh opinion displayed on the place like in you-tube..

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CALM DOWN. And read this before exploding again:

bmelanie said:

Whoa, calm down there prokofiev. As far as I can tell shine brought up the subject of history because Wrlmy was wondering where the bad blood between Japan and Korea comes from, and why it's still an issue.

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NO ONE on this forum brought up history to JUSTIFY anything. The history lesson was brought up to be just that, merely a brief lesson on the history between Japan and Korea.

In fact, the only person here who has made a GROSS ACCUSATION by using this history between Japan and Korea is YOU, PROKOFIEV. Right here:

PROKOFIEV said:

Whatever I or you feel about certain country becasue of history MUST stay out of this forum. They are all irrelevant.I really wonder if Yu-Na fans love Yu-na only because she defeated Japanese skaters. Or do they love her for her beautiful skating skills? This is really sad!!!

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You're the one who is so outraged by bringing history into this forum and is so angered by people using the bad history to justify certain acts, yet NO ONE on this forum used history to justify anything. YOU are the one who used history to accuse Koreans fans of loving Yu-Na only because she defeats Japanese skaters. That is a perverse, rotten accusation to make against Korean people.

Prokofiev, I apologize if I misunderstood you. From your previous post I gathered you were trivializing the brutal history. I'm glad you corrected my assumption.
^^ Medusa, I was actually hoping you'd speak on this issue. That's always a sensitive issue, and IMO there's no right and wrong. Of course no individual, at least none of us on this board I hope, started a war. It's bizzare and irrational to carry the weight of shame and guilt just because you happen to be born in a country that started a war, which you don't even support!, some decades ago. But is it unreasonable for the victims and their direct descendants to associate that country with war, massacre, etc.?
In high school, I was constantly taught and reminded how much brutality "we" committed to Native Americans and African-Americans. Nonetheless, if I were reproached or held responsible for having 'white" ancestry, I would feel extremely uncomfortable.

gourry, I think you're right. Come to think of it, Yuna's fanbase, Mao's as well but to a lesser degree, might be made up of skating fans as well as those who adore her media personality, be it modelling or singing. When you get enamored by a media persona, it's easy to behave like one of those Britney fans on youtube.

PROKOFIEV said:

I just really get disgusted by some bringing history, race, religion and politics to sports and to the forum like this. I have some family member who were direct victims of horrible war crime. I will tell you all the WAR were VIOLENT!!! Asia is not the only place that happened!!! Comfortwoman and camptown woman, Nanking massacre and Bodo massacres are not only tragedy of the WAR which is the biggest sin of humankind. By bringing the hatred to the sports will not solve anything. Whatever I or you feel about certain country becasue of history MUST stay out of this forum. They are all irrelevant.I really wonder if Yu-Na fans love Yu-na only because she defeated Japanese skaters. Or do they love her for her beautiful skating skills? This is really sad!!!

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History and politics has always been a part of sports, and I think in the interest of a more encompassing understanding of the sport it is important to be educated about these subject matters(thank you Shine for your post illuminating the Japanese atrocities - "Forgive but not Forget"), after which we know why these suber duper over fans feel the way they do. After all, the skater represents and carries her national flag, not to mention the playing of her national anthm while on the podium.

As far as war/politics/sports connection I cite some of the examples:

The legendary "Kati" Witt skating a heartfelt tribute to the shellshocked people of Sarajevo in "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" at Lillehammer Olympics, '94.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HReVQnp1GZA

In the 200 m medal award ceremony, African-American athletes Tommie Smith (gold) and John Carlos (bronze) raised their black-gloved fists as a symbol of "Black Power". The Australian Peter Norman, who had run second, wore an American "civil rights" badge as support to them on the podium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Summer_Olympics

Israeli athletes are routinely disinvited to sports events due to their govt's apartheid policies agains the palestinians, as recently happened to a tennis player at a tournament in Dubai.

Sports is not a self-sustaining Island of its own, as it necessitates the participants of various flag colors, enthusiastic fans(yes rabid ones too), and support/nurture of various national Federations. In this context, a skater is NOT born as a skater, but under a flag and later trains as a skater. How can she(even more so with nationalistic fans) ignore the history of her nation anymore than a mature fruit's proximity to its branch/root

Well, but I'd rather not see all the weight of the history of Japanese-Korean relations put on the shoulders of two 18 year old teenagers. And those of their fans.

evangeline said:

I think that Yu-Na uber-fans (like many other fans of other skaters) in this case see what they want to see. I agree with you when you say they're not intentionally lying, but they may just get caught up in their excitement to defend their skater. For example, I once commented on one of Yu-Na's videos on Youtube, complimenting on her program and beautiful jumps. However, I also wrote a short sentence on how I wished she'd improve on her spiral positions by pointing her toes or something like that--very soon after, people attacked what I wrote and said I was lying, Japanese, insulting Yu-Na. If they are convinced I am insulting Yu-Na, they would ignore everything else I wrote and zoom onto the comment about her spirals. If they are convinced that Yu-Na's flip is perfect, they would disregard opinions to the contrary and focus on the opinions/camera angles/whatever that agree with them. People see what they want to see.

And anyways, if the people on the technical panels (who have known skating their whole lives) are inconsistent, what are the chances that the fans will be consistent?

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Great post.

I would like to make myself clear here. As a figure skating fan, I have openly expressed my annoyance at the overboard fanaticism exhibited by some of the Kim fans (and to a lesser degree, Asada fans), but I wrote the post briefing the Japan-Korea conflict mainly in response to Wrlmy's queston, hoping to shed some light on the background of the ongoing Japan-Korea conflict, especially since it is something I can definitely relate to and understand being a Taiwanese-Chinese descendant myself. But while I do understand where the "bad blood" comes from, I definitely don't agree that it is projected appropriately. The two posts are mutually exclusive.

I think we all agree that we should separate sports from history/politics, and I believe we haven't really had any problem doing this in figure skating so far. What I also think though, is that Kim's popularity in Korea extends beyond the scope of what a regular athlete can achieve, mainly because she was FIRST to put Korea on the map in figure skating. Adoration for her seems to be on a national level (Yes, I do think it is far greater than what MK or even Dorothy Hamil ever achieved) and people don't love her just for her skating; rather, I believe many Koreans (who may not even watch skating) see her as a hero and national symbol who represents the way Korea has fought through travesty and came out triumphant. I say this because I know of Korean friends like that. One can't say it is not good for figure skating that many new fans have been gained through Kim's popularity, but at the same time these new fans are more fans of one skater than of the sport. Many of them seem to have quickly learned the technicality of the sport so they can discuss and defend their hero on internet forums (or Youtube); and they would go to the extreme at dissecting everything Kim does (ie. taking the most detailed screen shots, measuring the angle of jump take-off) in order to defend her, while at the same time posting multiple slo-mo clips to show how her main rival is imperfect in different ways. I think to MANY existing skating fans, this whole new brand of fandom just seems obsessive and something they have never really dealt with before. IMO this is also probably why a huge deal was made out from the practice collision between Kim and the Japanese skaters. The people that brought it up initially were probably new to skating and simply weren't familiar to how the sport usually works.

When a skating icon is viewed more than what she is and becomes a national hero in that way, it's inevitable that we will see obsessive behavior from her fans. They simply have a hard time accepting the fact that she can be less than perfect. I think Koreans are very passionate and proud people, and there is nothing wrong with that. While I think many do appreciate figure skating and skaters for the beauty they display, many also can't help seeing it as a pure rivalry between Korea and Japan, for reasons I already mentioned. But regardless of which, judging from their comments on public forums and Youtube, some of the new fans really need to have more respect for the sport which has had a long history before their idol ever even came along.

rallycairn said:

Thank you so much for your comments. I love these "live" reports as I've always felt skaters can present very differently live from how they look on TV, and I love the little stories and anecdotes about simply being there!

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Why thank you rallycairn. I really enjoyed attending the event and wanted to share my experience. Btw I loved watching Rachael Flatt, too!

I'm sorry to bring this up, but when statements like the following are made every opportunity possible about Japan's past, regardless of relevance to ongoing topics, I just feel the need to bring some perspective.

• "All Japanese textbooks cover up the history"

A list of history references in the Japanese textbooks, including the "good" ones and the "bad" ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_textbooks#Current_Issues

• "The government has never formally apologised"

A list of apologies by the goverment leaders and Emperor Akihito.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

• "Japanese government leaders should not visit the shrine where war criminals are honoured."

The Japanese are extremely sorry about the terrible crimes. The Japanese also have their own spiritual belief to honour people who fought for their country, no matter how fxxxed up their belief/ brainstorming was. There is simply no place for outsiders to have a say in this nor use this as a political card.

I'll say this frankly. While I feel disgusted when some Japanese right wing idiot politicians make statements to deny/ distort the history, it is unproductive for the victim countries to forever relate this issue to ANYthing Japan. Is there not a slightest chance that, as much as Japan has its own interest in their education on the history, Korean/Chinese governments have their own motives, too?

On a side note, I do wonder why some Korean people overseas seem to have no problem pretending to be Japanese and open "Japanese" restaurants, making money out of a culture of the country towards which they have complex feelings. Why don't they have an information board on the history next to the menu? Some do in any other places such as on the internet.

Yu-na was wonderful and she won, with such pride and dignity. I'd like to think she's not thinking, "Yes! I defeated the Japanese who did X & Y & Z .....to our country in the past!" Can we please move on, or at least pretend to be civilised members of the civilised countries and treat these issues with pride and dignity?

Moderators, please feel free to move this to a more relevant place. I apologise.