What makes Ashley Wagner stand out

bekalc · Apr 11, 2009

Originally Posted by Tinymavy15
I disagree. She won the freeskate at nationals even though she did not skate clean. I see her in the top two next year for sure.

If Ashley gets tons of downgrades on the GP series next year, like she got all this season, I can't see her in the top 2 at Nationals.

At this point Rachael Flatt's relative merits have to be sky rocketing with the USFSA, and Zhang's cannot be that far behind.

Trewyn · Apr 12, 2009

I was also thinking that the loss of the third spot could well be Ashley's spot. On the other hand, I believe that if Ashley fixes those underrotation problem on her jumps, she could well be in the top two at Nationals. Though it's true that right now Rachael and Caroline seem the most 'logic' Olympic team, it really all depends on those two nights at Nationals and the GP circuit preceding it. I think Ashley *can* fix her jumps. She used to be a real jumping bean. If you watch her first Jr Worlds performances, in my not very experienced view, most jumps don't even look close to being underrotated. They're all really solid. (other than the wrong edge lutz) I think Ashley was working really hard on fixing that edge on the lutz, having a near clean edge at Cup of China, but underrotating and falling then probably made her decide that it's best to have a wrong edge and not fall than the other way around. Maybe next season...

Andalusia · Apr 12, 2009

Trewyn said:
I was also thinking that the loss of the third spot could well be Ashley's spot.

I think the opposite. Ashley won the LP at Nats this year with an error-filled performance; a strong case could've been made for placing Rachael and/or Caroline ahead of her. Ashley has one of the worst flutzes ever, and she wasn't even given a '!' mark for it in the LP. Meanwhile, Caroline received the '!' mark on both her flip and lutz, something that has never happened before. The loss of that third spot could very well cost Caroline, IMO. Nats judges don't seem to like her. The only way she can guarantee herself a spot on the Olympic team is if she skates 2 perfect programs at Nats next year, with a 3-3 and no downgrades, and even then I'm not sure she won't be marked down. In addition, she'd have to be blazing on the GP circuit.

As long as she skates a clean SP, Ashley could skate a LP like she did at Nats this year and still make the Olympic team, IMO. Rachael is a virtual lock.

LeCygne · Apr 12, 2009

Andalusia said:
I think the opposite. Ashley won the LP at Nats this year with an error-filled performance; a strong case could've been made for placing Rachael and/or Caroline ahead of her. Ashley has one of the worst flutzes ever, and she wasn't even given a '!' mark for it in the LP. Meanwhile, Caroline received the '!' mark on both her flip and lutz, something that has never happened before. The loss of that third spot could very well cost Caroline, IMO. Nats judges don't seem to like her. The only way she can guarantee herself a spot on the Olympic team is if she skates 2 perfect programs at Nats next year, with a 3-3 and no downgrades, and even then I'm not sure she won't be marked down. In addition, she'd have to be blazing on the GP circuit.

As long as she skates a clean SP, Ashley could skate a LP like she did at Nats this year and still make the Olympic team, IMO. Rachael is a virtual lock.

Exactly. I believe Ashley was very gifted in the LP for all the reasons you mentioned. I think the judges wanted to give her peace of mind for that horrible SP. (Like, well I screwed up the short but I still won the long anyway...) I didn't see anything of the sort at 2008 Nationals when Caroline screwed up her short program. She skated a perfect LP and still came in what, 4th in the long? And this was after her terrific showing on the GP circuit when everyone thought she would win Nats hands-down.

That being said, I hope 4CC and Worlds this year have taught USFSA a lesson in propping up undeserving skates. Of all people, Caroline is the one who really can't afford any major slip-ups from here on out.

oxade21 · Apr 12, 2009

One word: NOTHING.

ManyCairns · Apr 12, 2009

Andalusia said:
I think the opposite. Ashley won the LP at Nats this year with an error-filled performance; a strong case could've been made for placing Rachael and/or Caroline ahead of her. Ashley has one of the worst flutzes ever, and she wasn't even given a '!' mark for it in the LP. Meanwhile, Caroline received the '!' mark on both her flip and lutz, something that has never happened before. The loss of that third spot could very well cost Caroline, IMO. Nats judges don't seem to like her. The only way she can guarantee herself a spot on the Olympic team is if she skates 2 perfect programs at Nats next year, with a 3-3 and no downgrades, and even then I'm not sure she won't be marked down. In addition, she'd have to be blazing on the GP circuit.

As long as she skates a clean SP, Ashley could skate a LP like she did at Nats this year and still make the Olympic team, IMO. Rachael is a virtual lock.

LeCygne said:
Exactly. I believe Ashley was very gifted in the LP for all the reasons you mentioned. I think the judges wanted to give her peace of mind for that horrible SP. (Like, well I screwed up the short but I still won the long anyway...) I didn't see anything of the sort at 2008 Nationals when Caroline screwed up her short program. She skated a perfect LP and still came in what, 4th in the long? And this was after her terrific showing on the GP circuit when everyone thought she would win Nats hands-down.

That being said, I hope 4CC and Worlds this year have taught USFSA a lesson in propping up undeserving skates. Of all people, Caroline is the one who really can't afford any major slip-ups from here on out.

ITA. I DO enjoy watching Ashley skate quite a lot but think she was extraordinarily gifted with her first place in the LP at Nationals. Not sure why her flutz and other bobbles in the program were so completely overlooked. It was a good performance but wasn't worthy of the top placing for the evening, IMO.

That said, I also, however, think that Ashley does have a different and enjoyable persona on the ice! She does seem more athletic and showy than balletic, and it is a refreshing thing to see.

Tinymavy15 · Apr 12, 2009

bekalc said:
If Ashley gets tons of downgrades on the GP series next year, like she got all this season, I can't see her in the top 2 at Nationals.

At this point Rachael Flatt's relative merits have to be sky rocketing with the USFSA, and Zhang's cannot be that far behind.

Both Flatt and Zhang have pretty long rap sheets concerning downgrades, particularly Zhang. Remember that at Nationals downgrades are not half as serious as they seem to be in international events. Ashley clearly underroatted and otherwise did not land clean in her LP in 2009 and still got a big score for the freeskate.

bekalc · Apr 13, 2009

Tinymavy15 said:
Both Flatt and Zhang have pretty long rap sheets concerning downgrades, particularly Zhang. Remember that at Nationals downgrades are not half as serious as they seem to be in international events. Ashley clearly underroatted and otherwise did not land clean in her LP in 2009 and still got a big score for the freeskate.

Rachael does not have a long rap sheet at all when it comes to downgrades. Most of the time it's just her 3/3 that gets downgraded, and well so does Mao Asada's. As for Caroline her rotation issues are clearly getting better as well.

And yeah Ashley got a big score, but she was to far behind for it to matter. If Wagner gets tons of downgrades next year too, they USFSA judges WILL notice.

LeCygne · Apr 13, 2009

Tinymavy15 said:
Both Flatt and Zhang have pretty long rap sheets concerning downgrades, particularly Zhang. Remember that at Nationals downgrades are not half as serious as they seem to be in international events. Ashley clearly underroatted and otherwise did not land clean in her LP in 2009 and still got a big score for the freeskate.

Like bekalc said, Rachael has pretty much only ever gotten her 3-3 downgraded. The same goes for Caroline, this season she's vastly improved her rotation issues. With all of the underrotations and bobbles, Ashley would only have gotten that big of a score at Nationals. Look at Junior Worlds, where she fell on one underrotated salchow and didn't even break 100.

Blades of Passion · Apr 14, 2009

What did she UR in her program at Nationals? I remember it being very good.

flying camel · Apr 14, 2009

I think she needs to lose the 3luts/3loop or switch to something easier.

Trewyn · Apr 15, 2009

^^ I think she already did; making it a 3F-3T, though we never saw her land it in competition, I think it was reported that she landed it at the Wilmington SC Nats send-off.
I personally adore a 3loop combination. I don't like the way COP systematically downgrades it

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What makes Ashley Wagner stand out

bekalc

Trewyn

Andalusia

LeCygne

oxade21

Match Penalty

ManyCairns

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

bekalc

LeCygne

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

flying camel

Trewyn

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