Is Yu-Na more similar to Katarina rather than Michelle?

seniorita · Jun 11, 2009

its funny cause i watch the videos with no sound, i have no idea what she skates to :laugh:

Were the old ladies faster than the current? it looks like to me in D.H. video.I had only seen her olympic ones sometime, she was beautiful.
yes lepisto is very graceful, except 2:50.

Andalusia · Jun 11, 2009

seniorita said:
what annoys me a litlle bit in rochette is her body, especially her arms are a bit.. i dont know the word, they are a bit "ballooned".

"Ballooned". :rofl:

Joannie is just, um, built. My issue with Rochette's arms is that they're...stiff. She has good posture, as do Michelle and Laura, but her arms don't move as fluidly and naturally as Michelle's. Laura has this problem, too. It's like they're holding a big beach ball.

antmanb · Jun 11, 2009

Andalusia said:
"Ballooned". Joannie is just, um, built. My issue with Rochette's arms is that they're...stiff. She has good posture, as do Michelle and Laura, but her arms don't move as fluidly and naturally as Michelle's. Laura has this problem, too. It's like they're holding a big beach ball.

That's exactly it - you've hit the nail on the head for me about Joannie, it's her arms that are stiff, if she jsut softened them slightly she'd look much better. The stiffness in her arms gives her skating a look as if she's concentrating really hard ont eh chreography rather than just losing herself in it.

Ant

janetfan · Jun 11, 2009

seniorita said:
its funny cause i watch the videos with no sound, i have no idea what she skates to Were the old ladies faster than the current? it looks like to me in D.H. video.I had only seen her olympic ones sometime, she was beautiful.
yes lepisto is very graceful, except 2:50.

Keep this quiet - but Dorothy won US Natls, OGM and WC in 1976 skating to "film music." She skated to excerpts from several scores written by legendary film score composer Max Steiner.
BTW, as a young boy growing up in Vienna Max Steiner took piano lessons with Brahms. Later he studied composition and theory with Mahler. Imagine their disappointment if they could have seen what became of him. :laugh:

seniorita · Jun 11, 2009

Andalusia said:
"Ballooned". built. My issue with Rochette's arms is that they're...stiff. It's like they're holding a big beach ball.

yes that was what i had pretty much in mind also, sorry for ballonned, i had no intention to offense or something

Medusa · Jun 11, 2009

seniorita said:
yes that was what i had pretty much in mind also, sorry for ballonned, i had no intention to offense or something

You are right, both Rochette and Lepistö have relatively stiff arms. But I still prefer Lepistö, she is charming and Rochette isn't (just my opinion of course).

Just read that Real Madrid offers 94 Million Euros (130 Million $) for C. Ronaldo? Holy moly!

Andalusia · Jun 11, 2009

seniorita said:
yes that was what i had pretty much in mind also, sorry for ballonned, i had no intention to offense or something

No offence taken.

I just thought "ballooned" was a hilarious way of saying that Joannie's got arms that make Johnny's look like a nymph's. :laugh:

janetfan · Jun 11, 2009

Medusa said:
You are right, both Rochette and Lepistö have relatively stiff arms. But I still prefer Lepistö, she is charming and Rochette isn't (just my opinion of course).

Just read that Real Madrid offers 94 Million Euros (130 Million $) for C. Ronaldo? Holy moly!

During Worlds Button commented that "Joannie has no idea how good she really is." I think he meant she needs to relax, and offer more of herself to the audience. I like her alot - but she is not one of my favorites.

Wrlmy · Jun 11, 2009

janetfan said:
During Worlds Button commented that "Joannie has no idea how good she really is." I think he meant she needs to relax, and offer more of herself to the audience. I like her alot - but she is not one of my favorites.

I remember Sandra saying the same thing about her back in 2006. I didn't know what Sadra meant, but your interpretation makes sense. Her potential really materialized this past season, so maybe she will be able to relax.

soogar · Jun 11, 2009

Mathman said:
Mao has gone through several cycles. It was two or three years ago where her LP looked like 3Lo, 3Lo+2Lo, 3Lo+2Lo+2Lo, etc. In those days her problem jump was the toe-loop. She often got dinged for pre-rotation (toe Axel.)

Now, in her all-time best performance (over 200 points at the 2009 World team trophy) she did 3A, 3A+2T, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3Lo, 3F+2Lo, 3T, 2A. No Slachow and no Lutz. (She tried a Lutz in the SP at Worlds but popped it.) Her SP at WTT was 3A+2T, 3F, 2A.

So out of ten jumping passes she did 5 Axels and 3 flips. Who can blame her? That's how to score 200 points in the CoP.

With layouts like that, how am I supposed to know which jumps she has and which ones she doesn't? As far as I am concerned, if she is tinkering around with her jump layouts rather than sticking in one of each jump, she is working around a weakness and does NOT have all of the jumps.

IMO Mao lands the triple axel enough that she can say that she "has" the jump. Of course, I have seen numerous scary falls from her on that jump- including that waxel from a few years ago where she landed on her back.

Mathman · Jun 11, 2009

Andalusia said:
My issue with Rochette's arms is that they're...stiff. She has good posture, as do Michelle and Laura, but her arms don't move as fluidly and naturally as Michelle's. Laura has this problem, too. It's like they're holding a big beach ball.

Dick Button was a big fan of beach ball arms. Here he is praising Michelle's arms in 1998.

''When Michelle has her arms spread, it's like she's holding the biggest beach ball in the world. Take the beach ball away and it looks like she's embracing everyone in the crowd."

He also famously recommended that Kimmie Meissner practice with a beach ball to achieve that effect.

antmanb · Jun 11, 2009

soogar said:
With layouts like that, how am I supposed to know which jumps she has and which ones she doesn't? As far as I am concerned, if she is tinkering around with her jump layouts rather than sticking in one of each jump, she is working around a weakness and does NOT have all of the jumps.

I think the question of whether someone has a full set of jumps depends very much on how often the skater lands or has landed the different jumps. Mao has landed one of every triple in competition. Yuna has landed all five triples up to Lutz in competition (though i think she has landed the triple loop only once). I'm still wondering why you give the world champion a pass despite her not having a full set of triples? Actually, what does it matter who does and doesn't have a full set of triples if Yuna won the world championships by and overwhelming lead without a full set of triples?

I remember after Michelle did Bolero at worlds there were tons of posts about how Michelle couldn't land the triple loop or the triple salchow, simply because she fell on the salchow that worlds. That seemed very bizarre at the time.

Perhaps you are still looking at skating far too much through 6.0 eyes than COP eyes?

Under COP there is no point advantage to showing a triple with every kind of take off, though there have been various suggestions that there should be bonus points awarded for landing a comlpete set of triples, or five plus a double axel, but as yet this has not been implemented.

Under COP the whole point of the scoring system is to get as many points as possible, so it is no longer in the skaters interest to repeat the easier triples. That is just the way skating has gone under COP. The limits on jumping passes means that unless a lady has a 3/3 combination or a 2A/3 combination then she canot do 7 triples. If you are only going to do six triples there is no point in show-casing all five triples and repeating one, it is better to repeat your two hardest triples and leave one triple out.

Ant

Mathman · Jun 11, 2009

antmanb said:
Under COP the whole point of the scoring system is to get as many points as possible, so it is no longer in the skaters interest to repeat the easier triples.

Or even to do them at all.

I think this is a big flaw in the CoP. The whole idea behind the new judging system was that it was supposed to encourage and reward a "balanced" program."

Instead, a program like 3A+2T, 3A, 3Lz+2t, 3Lz, 3F, 2A+2A seq, 2A+2T+2T -- 5 triples, no tripel-triple, no triple loop, no triple salchow, no triple toe -- outpoints the program that Kim scored 207 points on, by almost 8 base points.

This is what Mao should do (possibly substituting another flip for one of her Lutzes) if she wants to win the Olympics with a record score.

antmanb · Jun 11, 2009

Mathman said:
Or even to do them at all.

I think this is a big flaw in the CoP. The whole idea behind the new judging system was that it was supposed to encourage and reward a "balanced" program."

Instead, a program like 3A+2T, 3A, 3Lz+2t, 3Lz, 3F, 2A+2A seq, 2A+2T+2T -- 5 triples, no tripel-triple, no triple loop, no triple salchow, no triple toe -- outpoints the program that Kim scored 207 points on, by almost 8 base points.

This is what Mao should do (possibly substituting another flip for one of her Lutzes) if she wants to win the Olympics with a record score.

That is a shame. Was it gkelly that did quite a detailed propsal for a point bonus with various options e.g. double axel and five triples get one bonus, all six triples gets a higher bonus, all six triples but phrased in some way so that one can be a quad gets an even higher bonus. There was also something about how low the GOE could be in order to count for the bonus.

I liked that idea a lot.

Ant

soogar · Jun 11, 2009

antmanb said:
I think the question of whether someone has a full set of jumps depends very much on how often the skater lands or has landed the different jumps. Mao has landed one of every triple in competition. Yuna has landed all five triples up to Lutz in competition (though i think she has landed the triple loop only once). I'm still wondering why you give the world champion a pass despite her not having a full set of triples? Actually, what does it matter who does and doesn't have a full set of triples if Yuna won the world championships by and overwhelming lead without a full set of triples?

Ant

I don't give the world champion a pass. The contention was that Mao had all of the triples yet somehow has enough trouble with some of them that she leaves them out of competition. I don't believe that Yu Na is the jumping powerhouse that people make her out to be. She did 5 triples- 1 3-3 combo. That is not unbeatable.

If it is so disadvantageous for skaters to do a full set of triples under COP, how come there are so many skaters who do attempt a full layout of jumps save for the triple axel? As for Yu Na's triple loop, I thought that was one of the jumps that she had doubled in her LP? Did she intend on putting a 3 loop in and doubled it or was it always the intent not to do it? Either way, leaving out one jump is not the same as leaving out groups of jumps. IMO, Yu Na's programs are more balanced jump wise than Mao's.

For the past few years, Mao has been tinkering with her jump layouts to compensate for the jumps she doesn't do well and get points for the ones she has good technique on. It doesn't matter to me that she landed a salchow or a flutz in previous competitions- I watch worlds and see she doesn't even attempt certain jumps. At that particular point, without even making an attempt to include a jump, I can only conclude that she does not have a full set of triples. Watching the same jump over and over.. There are only so many axels I can watch.

I do believe that in COP, the advantage to doing different jumps would be reflected in the second score. It's still the hallmark of a good program to show variety for jumps and spins. Seems that male skaters have an easier time showing that variety than the women.

Mathman · Jun 11, 2009

soogar said:
If it is so disadvantageous for skaters to do a full set of triples under COP, how come there are so many skaters who do attempt a full layout of jumps save for the triple axel?

I think it is because of pride on the part of old-school coaches and choreographers.

I do believe that in COP, the advantage to doing different jumps would be reflected in the second score. It's still the hallmark of a good program to show variety for jumps and spins.

I agree.

In any case, not many ladies have a triple Axel at all, so their options are more limited if they start leaving out jumps.

antmanb · Jun 11, 2009

soogar said:
I do believe that in COP, the advantage to doing different jumps would be reflected in the second score. It's still the hallmark of a good program to show variety for jumps and spins. Seems that male skaters have an easier time showing that variety than the women.

I think aesthetically to the skate fan it is much better to see a full arsenal of jumps, and it is good for the viewr to see variety, however the COP does not reward or even encourage it.

Under the COP there is no mention anywhere that doing different jumps will add to the score. Not a single one of the PCS breakdown categoreis refers to variety of jumps of different take offs as far as i'm aware.

In fact the only rules about variety are that you cannot repeat a spin with the same shortening. This, however doesn.t really do much for variety becaseu the skater learns one difficult variation and change of edge on a spin and generally puts it into every singel spin in the programme.

Ant

Mathman · Jun 11, 2009

antmanb said:
Under the COP there is no mention anywhere that doing different jumps will add to the score. Not a single one of the PCS breakdown categoreis refers to variety of jumps of different take offs as far as i'm aware.

Still, I think it could be rewarded under skating skills, perfromance/execution, choreography and interpretation.

Jumps should punctuate thematic choreographic highlights, and should be matched to the music.

Although...I am not sure how a spectacular triple flip on the resolution of a big crescendo would differ from a spectacular triple loop in the same place.

But then again...if the musical theme were repeated and you have already established the expectation of the audience by doing a flip last time, then this time you come out with a loop instead! Wow!

shine · Jun 11, 2009

One thing that I always really liked about Rochette is the subtle use of her arms to nuances in the music. Funny how everyone can see different things.

Andalusia · Jun 11, 2009

Mathman said:
Dick Button was a big fan of beach ball arms. Here he is praising Michelle's arms in 1998.

He also famously recommended that Kimmie Meissner practice with a beach ball to achieve that effect.

Well then, maybe holding a beach ball is not the most apt analogy. More like clutching a slab of concrete tightly to the chest. :laugh:

In ballet, when a dancer is playing a puppet/marionette character (I'm thinking of maybe Coppelia), he/she holds their arms out forwards in a mechanical, slightly robotic manner - that's what Joannie's arm movements remind me of.

Is Yu-Na more similar to Katarina rather than Michelle?

seniorita

Andalusia

antmanb

janetfan

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seniorita

Medusa

Andalusia

janetfan

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Wrlmy

soogar

Mathman

antmanb

Mathman

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soogar

Mathman

antmanb

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shine

Andalusia

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