Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

Tonichelle said:

Men's skating has NEVER been portrayed as a serious "man's" sport in the US. At least not in the more modern times - it did start out as a gentlemans sport waaaaaaaay back - but the ladies quickly took over (because we're awesome ).

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I read that in the nineteenth century public rinks would have separate side rinks for ladies and (especially) courting couples. Ladies were not allowed on the main rink because they would be in danger of getting run over by the young men racing and doing daredevil tricks.

I think one of the problems is that winter outdoor participatory sports have almost disappeared. It's more cozy just to watch on television.

When my Dad was a boy in a small town in North Dakota they had an annual skating-swimming race. After bicycling out to the lake, in the summer they did the "short program" -- they swam across the lake the short way, a half mile.

Then one day in the winter they did the long program -- they skated across the lake the long way, two miles. The overall winner got some kind of prize.

Later, Dad never missed the chance to take the family to see the Ice Capades. He tried to play it off as a special treat for my Mom, but I think he was the one who really liked it.

DragonPhoenix said:

Maybe they could change figure skating altogether into a new sport and call it " Power Jumping " or " Stamina Skating " or "Agressive Skating " or something like that.

Who knows. Whatever.

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And eliminate the men so that fans of the Ladies can discuss fashion, makeup and maybe spins. No?

Joesitz said:

And eliminate the men so that fans of the Ladies can discuss fashion, makeup and maybe spins. No?

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Who said anything about getting rid of men’s skating ?

As far as the theatrical aspects of figure skating, you already announced you want to get rid of those aspects, like fashion, costumes, makeup and so on.

I guess your post was a friendly reminder

Why don't we put the ( older ) ladies in skimpy costumes?

................. That should interest the macho men.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, as I haven't read all 18 pages of this thread, so my apologies if it has, but I just read over on www.icenetwork.com that Johnny Weir is having a new movie/documentary debuting May 24th in Seattle!:thumbsup:

I'm definitely hoping to go, and will try to report back with a review. How exciting, every day brings something new & fresh added to the Olympic season.

i love to skate said:

I think many people jumped to conclusions very fast over what Skate Canada was trying to do and that is how things got so out of hand and misunderstood.

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I agree. Some people just picked up part of the information they need and went on with their own thinking path, even though others have already stated clearly otherwise before.

Tonichelle said:

HOW???? WHO????

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The public stereotypes who think that figure skating is a girly sport and male skaters are gays.

antmanb said:

I suppose then i'm scratching my head wondering what are stereotypical mannerisms and what makes them wrong?

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To assume that men who act not manly enough must be gays.

antmanb said:

I wasn't saying that skate canada was talking about changing the sport, I just wonder why skating has to be "repackaged" or needs some PR stunt to make it appeal to a group of people who it will never appeal to.

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As a governing body of a sport, do you think it's better not to do anything and watching the sport shrink, or it's better to actively envolve and lead and try to make the public understand more about the sport and try to correct some of the wrong stereotypical assumptions?

jennylovskt said:

The public stereotypes who think that figure skating is a girly sport and male skaters are gays.

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They weren't watching BEFORE, so how is it they're going to change NOW???? The only time they were interested - marginally so - was when Nancy got whacked! For a split second it was a blood sport... that's why pairs and dance are only popular when the pair comes crashing down in some horrid fasion.

Men's skating isn't killing the sport for being the same as it's ALWAYS been. Good grief!

I doubt very highly that if we went back to how it was done in the 50s/60s (and earlier) where the men didn't let their arms go above airplane wings it wouldn't be ANY different viewership wise.


Scott Hamilton tried to "man it up" and wore speed skater costumes and didn't choreograph a lot of froo-froo stuff. It was element to element to element and relied on his name after a while to stay in the mix when he had an off night... I don't think he alone held up skating or hurt it...

Evan Lysacek wears big name designers - mostly in all black - and tv ratings still go down and we all ho hum it...

trust me... it's not the fact that skating men are thought of as gay in this country that is "killing" the sport...

jennylovskt said:

To assume that men who act not manly enough must be gays.

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Well i just don't think that assumption is a bad one unless you think being gay is a bad thing. If as a man you are not comfortable enough in your sexuality to watch or allow your sons to go into figure skating, ballet or any other type of dance because you think that makes you or your kid gay, then the work that needs to be done is at home, not by skate Canada. As i said some PR stunt pointing out all the things that skating is not is stupid, anyone with half a brain cell can see it's not easy, that it is tough etc etc. Pointing these things out does not change anyone's perception. There was some tv thing on here in the UK where top footballers (soccer players to north americans!) were challenged by top male ballet dancers in various acitivites including each other's sport/art. Loads of physical tests, weights, stamina, cardio etc guess who won? The ballet dancers. Most people's reactions? No-one fell over themselves to change their minds, they just thought the ballet dancers were a bunch of very strong gays. Again i repeat - you will never, ever in a gazillion years make someone with a closed mind/attitude change their mind, so why waste precious resources trying to when the money coudl be put to better things.

jennylovskt said:

As a governing body of a sport, do you think it's better not to do anything and watching the sport shrink, or it's better to actively envolve and lead and try to make the public understand more about the sport and try to correct some of the wrong stereotypical assumptions?

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If the sport is shrinking it isn't because more straight men are not watching. If it is actively shrinking, the reason has to be that your core fans are deciding to stop watching the sport. It is simple marketing. If the sport has been growing up until recent times, from which demographic has the "increase" been coming from? I would bet my house it wasn't from straight men. Know your market and target that demographic, don't waste resources targeting the wrong crowd.

I'm sure all the other sports are feeling the pinch from the economic crisis but i doubt other NGBs are deciding how to re-package their sport as fem to appeal to a larger number of female viewers. They know their market and target it wherever they can

Ant

DragonPhoenix said:

Who said anything about getting rid of men’s skating ?

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Well not totally. just in America where they are not appreciated save a very small percentage. I think it would be exciting to just have Ladies figure skating in America so that costumes and ballet-like gestures can play more of an important part of judging.

It's really all about perception of the male skater. Even with high level jumping, if he moves in the lyrical style and not in the bravura style, there is a good chance (certainly in America) that he will be perceived as feminine. So the scores may be biased as he must be gay. Some people consider gays as sinners.

Two masculine like skaters will just be judged on their content of program.

Figure Skating has been branded as a feminine sport, maybe even a little girl's sport. It does have all the acoutrements to be feminine. I don't think little boys worry about costumes as much as they do about their jumps.

With the boys it is not pagaent like. It's about skating the way he feels it.

antmanb said:

Well i just don't think that assumption is a bad one unless you think being gay is a bad thing.

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OT: I believe that the assumption of by looking the manners of a man, one could determine whether he is a gay or not gay is totally wrong. That is what I was talking about.

antmanb said:

If as a man you are not comfortable enough in your sexuality to watch or allow your sons to go into figure skating, ballet or any other type of dance because you think that makes you or your kid gay, then the work that needs to be done is at home, not by skate Canada. As i said some PR stunt pointing out all the things that skating is not is stupid, anyone with half a brain cell can see it's not easy, that it is tough etc etc. Pointing these things out does not change anyone's perception. There was some tv thing on here in the UK where top footballers (soccer players to north americans!) were challenged by top male ballet dancers in various acitivites including each other's sport/art. Loads of physical tests, weights, stamina, cardio etc guess who won? The ballet dancers. Most people's reactions? No-one fell over themselves to change their minds, they just thought the ballet dancers were a bunch of very strong gays. Again i repeat - you will never, ever in a gazillion years make someone with a closed mind/attitude change their mind, so why waste precious resources trying to when the money coudl be put to better things.


If the sport is shrinking it isn't because more straight men are not watching. If it is actively shrinking, the reason has to be that your core fans are deciding to stop watching the sport. It is simple marketing. If the sport has been growing up until recent times, from which demographic has the "increase" been coming from? I would bet my house it wasn't from straight men. Know your market and target that demographic, don't waste resources targeting the wrong crowd.

I'm sure all the other sports are feeling the pinch from the economic crisis but i doubt other NGBs are deciding how to re-package their sport as fem to appeal to a larger number of female viewers. They know their market and target it wherever they can

Ant

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Someone has already pointed out before that Olympics will be held in Canada next year. And the number of boys enrolled in figure skating is declining. For the sake of these two reasons, what is wrong with Skate Canada promoting one of the most important category in the winter Olympics and make effort to explain to the public? Which crowd is wrong crowd? Winter sports are big in Canada. Winter Olympic in Canada is the biggest event. Skate Canada is targeting the whole public. It's not targeting US public. It's not targeting UK public. It's for Canada. I see nothing is wrong and I further think that they should make such effort.

antmanb said:

I'm sure all the other sports are feeling the pinch from the economic crisis but i doubt other NGBs are deciding how to re-package their sport as fem to appeal to a larger number of female viewers. They know their market and target it wherever they can
Ant

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Did you even read the statement by Skate Canada? They are not trying to re-package anything. In the statement they explain that they know their demographics, understand what appeals to them, and states that they have a good knowledge base of skating. They also emphasize how important artistry is to the viewers (and the sport in general). All Skate Canada was trying to do was emphasize the difficultly of the sport and draw in new viewers and gain momentum and interest for the Olympics.

Read this:
http://www.canada.com/Technology/Comment+misinterpreted/1256339/story.html

This was released back in February, right after the initial interview. This story clearly explains what the organization was trying to do and their views on the subject matter.

^^^
That's all well and GOOD for you but there is an image of figure skating as being a nice sport for girls. It offers so much more to the ladies than women's golf or women's team sports. It is as the description says, Ladies - not Women.

That's enough to drive red blooded macho Americans away from it. The point is, should it change or should it remain as is and see the numbers decreasing except every four years?

NBC will cater to the Ladies division in hopes it generates $$$ for NBC instead of building up trust in figure skating due to the loss of the general public in Pairs at SLC.

I do realize that many 'fans' of figure skating do not care about the sport or even if their favorite loses. They are thoroughly entertained by watching it anyway.

Do you mind it becoming like Skipping Rope Double Dutch Championships and have a smaller but heartfelt following?

If Canada can beef up the boys, I'm all for it.

jennylovskt said:

... Which crowd is wrong crowd? ...

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Well, what is wrong with a female/gay crowd? And was it really about the kids in the sport, not about viewership and fans? And what positive effect on the Vancouver Olympics could boys, recruited to figure skating this year, have?

And what does all of this have to do with the costume question?

i love to skate said:

Read this:
http://www.canada.com/Technology/Comment+misinterpreted/1256339/story.html

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In my opinion, this rant does not do Skate Canada any favors. How is language like this the least bit helpful?

"There is no campaign, no ad campaign, no TV campaign," said Skate Canada CEO William Thompson, whose office has been inundated with messages of support from those who have even a passing knowledge of the sport and its history, and outrage from the lovers of inflammatory headlines.

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When a writer resorts to name-calling, catagorizing poeple of other opinions as not having "even a passing knowledge of the sport" and "lovers of inflammatory headlines" -- frankly, that's just a smoke screen to hide the fact that he has nothing of value to contribute to the discussion.

Debbi Wilkes, in her position of director of sponsorship and advetrising for Skate Canada, told CBC that we should emphasize how "tough" the sport is. Also, the "over the top" costumes have to go because they de-emphasize the athleticism of the sport.

Later Skate Canada expended great effort in clarifying that what Wilkes meant by "tough" was "difficult." (Not sure where the costume part comes in.)

So the question is, does figure skating suffer from an image that their sport is "easy" (not "tough?") Is that the problem?

Do boys shy away from taking up the sport of figure skating because they think figure skating is easy and hockey is difficult?

There was a poll a couple of years ago where people were asked to vote on the hardest feat in sports. Is it harder to hit a home run in baseball, or to drive a golf ball 300 yards, etc. The winner in the public perception: a quadruple jump in figure skating.

Mathman said:

In my opinion, this rant does not do Skate Canada any favors. How is language like this the least bit helpful?

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How is it a "rant"? The purpose of the article was to show how a comment was misinterpreted and then people ran in every which way about it. Skate Canada was being described as "anti-gay" and people got the idea that they wanted to get rid of artistry all together. None of which is true.

Mathman said:

the question is, does figure skating suffer from an image that their sport is "easy" (not "tough?") Is that the problem?

Do boys shy away from taking up the sport of figure skating because they think figure skating is easy and hockey is difficult?

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The answer to both of these questions is yes. Did you skate growing up? If you did I'm sure you would have experienced comments from your peers about skating being "easy" and "a wimpy-sport" such as I did as well as a multitude of other kids I skated with. I know the teasing for boys is much much worse. Boys shy away from skating for many reasons but the perception about hockey being more difficult and a more manly sport is definitely one of them. Kudos to Skate Canada for attempting to do something about these perceptions.

Mathman said:

In ...Debbi Wilkes, in her position of director of sponsorship and advetrising for Skate Canada, told CBC that we should emphasize how "tough" the sport is. Also, the "over the top" costumes have to go because they de-emphasize the athleticism of the sport.
Later Skate Canada expended great effort in clarifying that what Wilkes meant by "tough" was "difficult." (Not sure where the costume part comes in.) ...

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Maths, have you got a link to the Debbi Wilkes interview? I was curious what she actually said, but didn't find it anywhere.

ITA with your post in general.

i love to skate said:

Did you skate growing up?

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At my one and only skating lesson I spent the whole time clinging to the boards for dear life. I concluded that this sport was too hard.

So I joined the orchestra instead. That was OK because I played the baritone horn -- a manly instument if ever there was one.

My best friend wanted to learn the violin. The other boys followed him home from school shouting "queer," and they took his violin away and busted it up.

Perhaps the boys believed that playing the baritone horn was more difficult and challenging than playing the violin.

i love to skate said:

Boys shy away from skating for many reasons but the perception about hockey being more difficult and a more manly sport is definitely one of them.

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So which perception is it that Skate Canada is trying to address?

(a) Figure skating is less difficult than hockey? Or

(b) Figure skating is less manly than hockey?

Mathman said:

At my one and only skating lesson I spent the whole time clinging to the boards for dear life. I concluded that this sport was too hard.

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i just had a déjà vu

viv said:

Maths, have you got a link to the Debbi Wilkes interview? I was curious what she actually said, but didn't find it anywhere.

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I don't know if this is the interview, but it is CBC's take on the whole "tough" campaign. The part with Ms. Wilkes starts at 2:15. She says, "The generalization that all male figure skaters are gay is a tremendous mistake."

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/ondemand/?...84aafb8762f4caf9334b9c03d1&videoId=1009723783

Andrew Poje is referred to by CBC as the "face of the new advertising campaign." He says, "(In contrast to hockey players) we get to be around the pretty girls, so who's smarter?"

CBC goes on to say that Skate Canada's "tough" campaign is expected to begin airing in March, just before the World Championships in Los Angeles. Now Mr. Thompson, after being "deluged" by good people supporting the campaign and evil people denouncing it, says,

"There is no campaign, no ad campaign, no TV campaign."

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I guess CBC got it wrong, somehow.