- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
That is so funny! that boy looks like a mini plushenko.
Jump Doctors: Myth or Real
- Thread starter janetfan
- Start date
That is so funny! that boy looks like a mini plushenko.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
I didn't know Plushy had a mini-me! If the comeback is not successful maybe we see Plushy and mini- Plushenko in the next Austin Powers movie. I think Scott Hamilton has a perfect costume for mini- Plushenko to wear and there would be no need to adjust the size!! LOL)
(of course per approval of seniorita.)
Mishin and his magic vest would make a good Doctor Evil too!
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
More the latter, I guess. There are, after all, more jumping passes than jumps, so you have to repeat something.
This is perfect: SP: 3Lz+2T, 3Lo, 3A. LP: 3Lo, 3Lz+2T, 3T+3T, 3F, 3S, 2A, 3Lz (The Red Violoin). This shows mastery of the "vocabulary of figure skating," as they say in the description of the judging system.
It could be made harder and hence more point-worthy by upgrading the combinations, and if she could do a triple Axel that would be amazing. But at least she didn't do any of those dreadful 3-2-2 combos that bring the program to a dead stop.
In the last couple of years of Michelle's competitve career, for medical reasons she couldn't do a loop jump. This was a bad thing, not a good.
When skaters leave out jumps in order to increase their points by doubling up on others, the impressuion is that, for whatever reason, the skater can't do that element. If you are going for the World Championship you should be able to do a triple Salchow (right, Kristi?
) You should be able to do a triple Lutz, but I am a little more forgiving on that because it is a hard jump (I am not sure how Michelle would have fared in the era of ! and e.)I think the new judging system provides a disincentive to develop a mastery of the full range of jumps, because you can get more points by leaving out the Salchow or the loop altogether, and doing yet another flip or Lutz instead.
Is not this boy Mishin pupil Artur Gachinsky?
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
I was wondering about the coaches who are supposed to be experts at fixing jumps. With all of the attention given to jumps under cop.- Lips, flutz, URs -
it is more important than ever for a skater to have clean well-executed jumps.
Yet I am left puzzled by the fact that some of today's greatest skaters are having some of these problems. If there are these mythical "jump doctors" where are they hiding? Tell me why is Kimmie still having such jump problems? Why is Mao still flutzing? Why can't Yuna do a triple Loop? Why does Alissa keep falling? Why can't Caro K do a better 2A? Why hasn't someone fixed Caroline's mule kick? Why is Mirai having continued UR problems? I could go on and on and only named as many skaters as I did so it wouldn't look like I was playing favorites. Many of the skaters I mentioned are my favorites
I think many of the best skaters in the world could use a house call? Is there actually a jump doctor out there who can help them?
Well, Elvis is in the building now...some of our skaters could sure use his help!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I'm much impressed with his use of gimmicks to assist young skaters. I think Mischin is a very caring man with male skaters, and he wants to help.
Still wondering why Yagudin left him. :scratch:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Those young skaters aged 10 or 12, unfortunately, want to be the next big thing, and the younges best thing to boot.
It is much more comfortable to rotate 3 air turns from a flutz takeoff than from a true lutz takeoff. There is no counter rotation to block the air turns. I believe young American skaters should not go beyond single and double lutzes until their take off edges are perfect.
European Ladies seem to do true lutzes. No?
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I don't think you're asking the right question about Mao. She is and has (all season long) been working on fixing the flutz. The thing you have to remember is that these skaters have been doing these jumps whether as singels, doubles or triples for anything between 11-15 years. That is an awful lot of muscle memory that needs fixing if there is a fundamental flaw with your technique. What we have seen this season is Mao pop the Lutz or mess up in some way but more often than not she on an outside edge. I think it's clear the tactic that Tarasova has taken is - remove the Lutz from the LP (allowing a skater to continue defaulting to poor technique in pressure situations just backs up the bad muscle memory, it is often better to ditch a jump completely to "forget" it before you fix it) and force a "proper" lutz only attitude in the short.
It took Joannie one whole season to fix her lutz and i think the same will be the case for Mao. Jump doctor she may not be but i think Tarasova's goal has always been the Olympic year. Sacrifice the year before so that Mao has a clean lutz for the Olympic year, plus a year of trying two triple axels. Compared to the past season the Olympic year will be a doddle.
While that is true, skaters will often fall into one of two camps - the ones who prefer edge jumps and the ones who prefer toe jumps. I think Lambiel was a preferred toe-jumper. Patrick I'm not sure about, but he is a young skater. Lets not forget (despite the push for quads) the triple axel is an extremely difficult jump. If it wasn't a particularly difficult jump then more women would do it. I think sometimes we forget just how hard these elements are. Axels are nearly always the test of a skater at every level - getting the single axel is one of those tests of skill that shows whether you'll be more than "recreational" skater. Getting the double is the first test of whether a skater is going to be a competitive "elite" skater in terms of competing nationally.
I was watching clips of one of the youngsters and her 3Lutz does not look like it has chamged much from age 14 to her current age of 16. I wonder if having practiced it for so long she will ever be able to fix it?
Just some questions and thoughts for an off-season weekend
That's the difficulty - you have to go back to the single - break the jump down completely to the parts that make up the whole and tweak and fix each thing, slowly building the jump back up until you can do the single properly and then you have to add rotations without going back to bad technique. It is a very lengthy process and if you're serious about changing flawed triple jump technique you will likely lose the jump for a season.
Ant
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Good post ant 
I get the feeling that this bit about "jump doctors" is more myth than reality. As you said about Tat - there is no magical lesson that she, Mishin or anyone else can use to correct a skaters jump problems. Rather it seems the way this gets done is to spend a considerable amount of time and a lot of hard work correcting the technical problem. Joe pointed out that too many young American skaters are practicing the 3 Lutz without ever mastering a proper 2 lutz.
The young American skater I had in mind is Caroline Zhang. I wonder as she grows and gets stronger if she will be able to change the mechanics on her 3 Lutz. You mentioned "muscle memory"and that is not a myth. I also think about all of the practicing Caroline has done at such a young age (it seems she almost wills herself to complete 3 rotations) and the effect it may have on her body as she continues on with her skating career.
I get the feeling that this bit about "jump doctors" is more myth than reality. As you said about Tat - there is no magical lesson that she, Mishin or anyone else can use to correct a skaters jump problems. Rather it seems the way this gets done is to spend a considerable amount of time and a lot of hard work correcting the technical problem. Joe pointed out that too many young American skaters are practicing the 3 Lutz without ever mastering a proper 2 lutz.
The young American skater I had in mind is Caroline Zhang. I wonder as she grows and gets stronger if she will be able to change the mechanics on her 3 Lutz. You mentioned "muscle memory"and that is not a myth. I also think about all of the practicing Caroline has done at such a young age (it seems she almost wills herself to complete 3 rotations) and the effect it may have on her body as she continues on with her skating career.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
To be honest my comment about Tarasova was particularly about her - I don't think she is a technical coach and certainly not a jump coach. She was an ice dance coach first and foremost who has taken technically accomplished singles skaters and helped them develop their presentation/musicality etc.
Mishin on the other hand is much more of a technical coach, and furthermore, has developed his own style/methods of teaching that he has refined through his many successful male students.
Everyone that i have spoken to about his jump training has mentioned his technique of little or no upper body movement on jumps, the fixing of the shoulders with the only strong movement on jumps coming (if you are an anti-clockwise rotator) from the right arm punching round and the left arm drawing back, sweeping the imaginary object from the imaginary table etc etc
Whatever he says/however he teaches it, it seems to resonate with his students so there has to be something in that. He worked with the UK squad a number of years ago and had some of them rotating triple axels and quads, where they previously had not been even close.
Off the top of my head I always thought Cathy (or is it with a "K") Casey was specifically a jump coach? I thought she's pioneered the use of those green blobs you stick to your joints and the computers shows you exactly where everythign in your body is during a jump etc.
Ant
Mishin on the other hand is much more of a technical coach, and furthermore, has developed his own style/methods of teaching that he has refined through his many successful male students.
Everyone that i have spoken to about his jump training has mentioned his technique of little or no upper body movement on jumps, the fixing of the shoulders with the only strong movement on jumps coming (if you are an anti-clockwise rotator) from the right arm punching round and the left arm drawing back, sweeping the imaginary object from the imaginary table etc etc
Whatever he says/however he teaches it, it seems to resonate with his students so there has to be something in that. He worked with the UK squad a number of years ago and had some of them rotating triple axels and quads, where they previously had not been even close.
Off the top of my head I always thought Cathy (or is it with a "K") Casey was specifically a jump coach? I thought she's pioneered the use of those green blobs you stick to your joints and the computers shows you exactly where everythign in your body is during a jump etc.
Ant
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
I agree with your points about Tat and Mischin. I have no doubt that Mischin can help skaters get to the next level of jumps by using methods he has developed over the years. But it was the "doctor" factor I was wondering about. Tat is using the only approach she knows with Mao. Go back, work on the mechanics, take time - maybe as much as a year (or more) to break the bad habit and develope new muscle memory. But just about any responsible and experienced coach might do the same thing (under cop).
Sticking with Mishin and Mao - do you think Mischin could work with Mao and correct her flutz in 5-10 sessions? That is what a "doctor might do - cure an ailment. I just think it is different teaching skaters techniques - taking them from doubles to triples - than taking a very accomplished skater and trying to fix a jump problem. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what leads me to the conclusion that this bit about "jump doctors" is not a real or atleast an accurate term.
Thanks for your insights into this ant.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Anxiously awaiting Rafael's expertise with Sasha's flutz, although I do not think her scores will reflect a WET if she hasn't mastered the true lutz.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I've never heard anyone in skating referred to as a jump "doctor". Ultimately the comparison with a doctor is not one that works in skating IMO. A doctor treats his patients for illnesses. If the illnesses are known then it's quickly diagnosed and recitifed, if the illness is not known, or worse still is known but there is not cure then there is no fix. I'm not explaining myself properly but ailments or diseases are all foreign matters in the body that need fixing. That or there are actual physical changes that have taken place that need mending (broken bones etc). I don't think anything in skating is comparable with that.
Perhaps sticking with the medical theme, perhaps a psychologist would be a better comparison than a doctor? That is more about bahvioural changes which do not happen over short periods of time but over much longer ones.
I don't think anyone can fix a flutz in 5-10 sessions. It's about unlearning muscle memory and re-learning correct muscle memory and that can only happen with time, there is no magic solution to jump problems except maybe teaching proper technique in the first place
But part of the problem (certainly in the UK) is that there does not appear a uniform way to teach jump, and there is not even accepted technique for certain jumps. If the grass roots coaches are not teaching the singles properly then what hope do you have as you move up to doubles and triples?
Ant
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- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I suspect that there is not enough time for Arutunian to fix Cohen's flutz. At this stage, 4-5 months before Cohen's first competition, I think she'd be happy enough to be squaeking out a rotated triple flutz.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
I've never heard anyone in skating referred to as a jump "doctor". Ultimately the comparison with a doctor is not one that works in skating IMO.
Perhaps sticking with the medical theme, perhaps a psychologist would be a better comparison than a doctor? That is more about bahvioural changes which do not happen over short periods of time but over much longer ones.
I don't think anyone can fix a flutz in 5-10 sessions. It's about unlearning muscle memory and re-learning correct muscle memory and that can only happen with time, there is no magic solution to jump problems except maybe teaching proper technique in the first place
Ant
"Jump doctor" is American slang. Many specialists have "doctor" associated with their expertise in non-medical fields. An expert at fixing auto transmissions may be referred to as a "transmission doctor." NBA legend Julious Erving was called "the Doctor." I remember hearing it used for Callaghan "Kimmie needs a jump doctor and he may be good for her."
It has nothing to do with being a licensed physcian
The sports pyschology angle is nothing new either and although interesting I have my doubts about that one too. Not saying it can't help - but I have seen many who have not been helped by it. I guess that depends on the individual. For some it can be beneficial while others will continue having the same problems.
Over here we say they are a "head case."
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Anyone who has earned a PHD, is a Doctor.
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- Jul 11, 2008
So.. jump doctors earned a PhD in jumping?
In Mishin's case, I think that is pretty much true. Didn't he write a doctoral dissertation about jump mechanics?
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
I don't know but if he did - then it certainly seems OK to refer to him as Doctor or even "Jump Doctor."
