Is watching figures an oxymoron?

Spun Silver · Jun 7, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTDLjhTUMbA&feature=related

I happened on this video and wondered how the experts and fans of Goldenskate would look at it. For a layperson like me, the comparison of the two skaters (Beatrix Schuba and Janet Lynn) is quite dramatic just on the basis of confidence and carriage. (I don't know what their blades are supposed to be doing.) Schuba looks so competent and controlled, whereas Lynn looks scared and unbalanced and her free leg is waving all over the place.

What else does this video show to the naked eye? Is this an impressive record of figures, or is it mainly of historical interest for Lynn and Schuba fans?

Feel free to post other good vids of figures.

Mea culpa if this is too elementary, but it IS off-season.

Tonichelle · Jun 7, 2009

well, IIRC, Janet was not known as a strong figureS skater... so I guess you can tell basic differences, but if you can't see the tracings I guess you wouldn't know what the judges saw entirely.

i love to skate · Jun 8, 2009

After watching that, I am reminded how happy I am that Skating Skills replaced Figures. Thankfully, I only had to do figures for one year before Skills were introduced, but I can still remember being bored to tears, not to mention freezing while doing them! :laugh:

Eurofan · Jun 8, 2009

It must have been nerve-wracking to have the judges so close to you on both sides. IIRC, Lynn said she was doing okay up until the last figure when she did something wonky - made a figure that looked like a fish or something.

Mafke · Jun 8, 2009

As valuable as that video is (nb. besides Schuba and Lynn there's also Karen Magnussen) it's not tremendously educational.

Too much footage of the skaters' heads and not enough showing the blades.

The sound is added in and doesn't match what the skaters are doing (hint good figures are quiet, maybe a slight hissing sound)

Internet video can't give you a good idea of the tracings (how they're placed on each other and the size and overall shape of the figure.

As someone who actually enjoys watching figures (like CDs the more you watch the more you learn the more you see) I think figures on ice suffered from too much focus on the print (tracings) and not enough on the skater's posture and speed (those were supposed to be taken into account but were largely ignored in later years).

Figures are still done on rollers (skated on a visible pattern and judged on speed and posture in addition to how close they stay on the line - IIRC all four wheels should always straddle the line, this means the smaller and more compact the turn the better) and watching them at different levels can give you an idea of the difference between an okay, good and great figure.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 8, 2009

Tonichelle said:
well, IIRC, Janet was not known as a strong figureS skater... so I guess you can tell basic differences, but if you can't see the tracings I guess you wouldn't know what the judges saw entirely.

I think Janet was known as a good figure skater and Trixie was known as a better figure skater.

I did not like Trixie's carriage as much as Janet's, and Trixie's 3Turns looked somewhat forced to me. Janet's loop change loop was so smooth.

I could not make out the tracings of either skater, but I assume this was Trixie's to win.

After it finished, I watched Janet's Free Skate. For that time, I have to say, that she was very special. The flow and smoothness is not around in todays Ladies' who have learned that Jumps make the winner.

janetfan · Jun 8, 2009

Spun Silver said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTDLjhTUMbA&feature=related
What else does this video show to the naked eye? Is this an impressive record of figures, or is it mainly of historical interest for Lynn and Schuba fans?
Mea culpa if this is too elementary, but it IS off-season.

I liked your question and especially the topic heading. Trixie was supposed to have been an all-time great at figures which only made Janet seem worse than she was. Never great at figures - Janet did work hard at them and credits practicing figures for helping her free skating. BTW, at Worlds/Olympics Janet usually was close to a top ten finish. Is that really so bad? We don't think of the Lady who finished 10th at Wolrds last season as being terrible at free skating do we?
An oxymoron for me might be that the sport is still called "figure skating."

There are no more school figures and maybe the sport should be called "Free Skating."

gkelly · Jun 8, 2009

Mafke said:
As valuable as that video is (nb. besides Schuba and Lynn there's also Karen Magnussen) it's not tremendously educational.

Too much footage of the skaters' heads and not enough showing the blades.

Agreed. Very frustrating to watch. Too many cuts, often obscuring when they're cutting to a different angle on the same figure and when they're cutting to a different figure that was skated earlier. (The loops, shown first, were the last ones skated.)

Were the change loops and paragraph double threes the only figures shown for Schuba and the change loops paragraph threes the only ones shown for Lynn? Or were there snippets of any other figures in there as well?

We can get a reasonable comparison from a partial coverage of the loops, but I really couldn't tell much about the other figures from the brief shots of the whole body or just blades that were provided.

Mathman · Jun 8, 2009

I wonder if modern technology might be able to come up with a way to show figures contests in an interesting way. You could have overhead cameras, superpositions of ideal figures, split screen comparisons.

Another, and somewhat similar, winter sport that is interesting to watch is ice sculpture. Especially the extreme versions with chain saws and time limits.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 8, 2009

I wonder if anyone has good footage of figures to reminis about. Barbara Ann Scott's were prominently displayed in photograghs from LIFE magazines. Her three tracings were never obvious. They just had the look of one tracing. Were they better than Schuba's? I do not know, and I'd like to see Magnussen's also.

I reiterate: Lynne had good figures but Schuba's were better.

antmanb · Jun 8, 2009

Mathman said:
I wonder if modern technology might be able to come up with a way to show figures contests in an interesting way. You could have overhead cameras, superpositions of ideal figures, split screen comparisons.

Or some kind of super-clear ice with a camera underneath it that can show the tracing and the skater above doing it over it (a bit like the poker you see with glass tables and the camera underneath shows the viewr what cards the players have.)

Ant

janetfan · Jun 8, 2009

antmanb said:
Or some kind of super-clear ice with a camera underneath it that can show the tracing and the skater above doing it over it (a bit like the poker you see with glass tables and the camera underneath shows the viewr what cards the players have.)

Ant

Sure that would be possible - and good for looking up a skater's dress too...

antmanb · Jun 8, 2009

janetfan said:
Sure that would be possible - and good for looking up a skater's dress too...

No more than you already see, after all skirts fly up when the skater is travelling fast. The pairs skaters/dancers and women spiral sequence often have a mandatory crotch flash at any rate!!

It would encourage the use of trousers in women's skating which would be no bad thing. Maybe more would use them for free skating too!

Ant

Tonichelle · Jun 8, 2009

it'd be interesting to see them pull that off, Ant... not sure if it'd be possible.

it's a moot point anyway, figures ain't never coming back :no:

janetfan · Jun 8, 2009

antmanb said:
No more than you already see, after all skirts fly up when the skater is travelling fast. The pairs skaters/dancers and women spiral sequence often have a mandatory crotch flash at any rate!!

It would encourage the use of trousers in women's skating which would be no bad thing. Maybe more would use them for free skating too!

Ant

Shizuka in trousers? What a shame and loss for the sport that would be

antmanb · Jun 8, 2009

janetfan said:
Shizuka in trousers? What a shame and loss for the sport that would be

Unless she re-instated and started competing elligibly then there'd be no worries.

Plus if former team mate Suguri looked great in trousers there's no reason Arakawa herself couldn't look great

http://www.iceskate.net/skater pix/suguri/fumie_suguri_2005worlds_fs_misha_japaridze_ap.jpg

gkelly · Jun 15, 2009

For those who might be interested, here's a video of a patch session held recently in Colorado Springs:

http://www.icenetworkincrowd.com/_A...orado-Springs-6-12-09/video/438553/72859.html

Mathman · Jun 15, 2009

That was cool. Thanks for posting that.

In terms of the topic of this thread, it would be interesting to make a short video showing one skater's progress, through a series of lessens and patch sessions, and then an actual figures competition.

Ladskater · Jun 15, 2009

If you want a really good comparison of Trixi Shchuba's amazing abilities at tracing figures, get a hold of Toller Cranston's book "When Hell Freezes Over." I think it is this book or another one his books that he talks about that very event. Trixi Schuba was probably the best figure skater of that period. She excelled at tracing figures and would be miles ahead of every other skater as the figure portion counted for 50% of the whole total. She was not the most graceful skater when it came to the free skate so both Karen Magnussen and Janet Lynn had her beat there. The average person did not understand why Trixi would be crowned the world champion after they would see her skate and especially after watching Karen and Janet skate. I once saw Trixi demonstrate her special talents at an ice show. The tracings were perfect.

Thanks for this.

Spun Silver · Jun 15, 2009

This whole thing puzzles me. I've been watching skating mainly since they stopped doing figures in competition, so in a way I have no problem with their being gone. But intellectually, I rebel at the idea of a sport that cuts off its historical knees to the point where, as someone said, it shouldn't even be called "figure skating" any more.

My husband is a teacher and likes to use the idea of learning figures before getting to do free skates as a metaphor for how students have to do standard assignments before they get to invent creative research projects. I tried to tell him figures aren't done any more but I guess he'll have to wait till he sees the blank looks on students' faces. I wonder how many more years he can use that metaphor.

Is watching figures an oxymoron?

Spun Silver

Tonichelle

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i love to skate

Eurofan

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Tonichelle

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