new article about Yuna and her mom

Daniel5555 · Jun 12, 2009

janetfan

Why doesn't it matter? If someone here posts that the NY Times is biased against Asians - but fails to mention the reporter is Korean? That seems relevant to me.

I didn't say that NY Times is biased against someone, I just said that the fact that the reporter is Korean doesn't affect the quality of the article, which can be good or bad.
It's obvious that I can't answer for other people.

As to how the article is written - one thing is very clear . The article has direct quotes from the book as well as a few quotes from Yuna.
There is most definitely "original material" in this article.

But still those are just quotations. If he asked them directly, that would be other story.

The thought has occurred to me that this review may have intentionally been written in a provocative manner . Nothing can help boost a book's sales like a controversial review - one that gets people talking about it. Publishers have been known to stoop to almost any level when trying to create a buzz about a new book. This book will never be a big seller in the USA so a publisher/distributor looks for any opportunity to create sales wherever and however they can.

Oh, come on, it mentions the book two times. Now we really are starting to get picky.

fairly4

I just hope Yu-na isn't arrogrant, ungrateful for all the time, attention her mother and family did for her behalf.

Of course she's not.

evangeline

I don't think that the the New York Times really is bent on propagating the crazy-Asian-parent stereotype. As a regular reader of the New York Times, I remember plenty of articles talking about the extremes of parenting in general--last year, I remember this article about Manhattanite parents obsessing and pushing their kids hard to get into the right preschool. And based on the less-than-glowing portrayals, I doubt the New York Times is really misleading parents into thinking that pushing their kids extremely hard is the only way to success.

I don't know, why everyone is talking about New York Times? The journalist's opinion not always reflects the opinion of the newspaper.

You know what's happening? Journalist just has to write something this week about Yuna, so OK, he decides to put quotes from there and from there, one theme, another theme and we have it - a bad article and a big discussion about nothing. That's just how the press works - they are not even much interested in the topic in the most cases.
So don't take it too seriously. It's not like some serious analysis about Korean parents, neither is about why Yuna became champion.
They just have to publish something and really in that case there is not even enough space to make something serious.

The press is like the politics, they have to write about everything while being experts in nothing.

janetfan · Jun 12, 2009

Daniel5555;400351 You know what's happening? Journalist just has to write something this week about Yuna said:
Here it is for all who are so dismayed by this article. It is a link where you can rate this article.

http://www.newscred.com/author/show/name/choe-sang-hun

Here is a link to a brief bio about this Pulitzer award winning reporter - who has also been honored for journalism in his native Korea.

http://www.pulitzer.org/biography/2000-Investigative-Reporting

http://www.pulitzer.org/citation/2000-Investigative-Reporting

He is apparently very well known and highly respected in Korea.

FYI, the reporter has a 99.06% accuracy rating with the NY Times - or one complaint about inacurracy in 105 articles. A very stellar record as far as accuracy goes. Apparently, looking at his by-lines his specialty is reporting on Korea. Well, no surprise there really.

babyalligator · Jun 12, 2009

evangeline said:
I don't think that the the New York Times really is bent on propagating the crazy-Asian-parent stereotype. As a regular reader of the New York Times, I remember plenty of articles talking about the extremes of parenting in general--last year, I remember this article about Manhattanite parents obsessing and pushing their kids hard to get into the right preschool. And based on the less-than-glowing portrayals, I doubt the New York Times is really misleading parents into thinking that pushing their kids extremely hard is the only way to success. But perhaps the New York Times is against parents in general?

Honestly, I don't know why people are so up in arms about this article. It is undeniable that Yu-Na's mother and family sacrificed a lot to get Yu-Na to where she is right now: this article, along with the excerpts I've seen of Yu-Na's mother's book, makes this clear. This article does not appear to completely endorse the actions of Yu-Na's mother--but so what? Some people disagree with this style of parenting, and others agree. Different strokes for different folks--just because someone disagrees with how Yu-Na's mother handled the situation doesn't mean that they're inherently wrong, completely ignorant about Korean culture, or egregiously biased.

I'm not saying that the NYT is deliberately propagating anything. I said that there may be a negative side effect, implying that such side effect, if it occurs, is unintended. I am also a regular reader of the NYT and spend way too much time reading it actually. lol. And trust me, I know about crazy Manhattan parents. My mother was one. Yes, I am a product of 13 years at a K-12 private school. But what I also noticed this past year was series of articles spread out over the past year concerning Asian parenting styles including one by I believe the same writer about South Korea's elite high school institutions. Another was about the large numbers of South Korea's students who study abroad and the families that are as a result, separated.

Truthfully, I think there is a lot of interest in Asian educating styles among American (or at least NY) parents. This past high school class (my sister's HS class) was supposedly the most competitive in terms of number of college applicants. It's only natural that people search for ways to give their kids a boost, find justification for the way they push their children, or feel relieved by thinking, "at least the competition in the US is not as bad as in Asian countries." (The last option, by the way, is completely untrue if my sister is anything to go by.)

The reason why I may come across as being sensitive to such an article has nothing to do with me being a fan of Yuna Kim. It has a lot more to do with me being an Asian-American who is a little more than a bit tired of the bad rep that Asian parents get. I love my obsessive mom.

True, there were times that I would get very angry with my parents about pressure and not being allowed to stay out very late or party like some other people. But without them there, I would not be where I am today. Sure, they push you, but they're not stupid. They know when a kid just can't do something. But more importantly, they recognize potential when they see it. A lot of kids have potential that just becomes lost because they falter for a moment. It's like jogging every morning. Some days you're all set to go, and some days it's raining and you feel really sleepy and lazy. Parents are there to make sure that kids don't lose out just because they momentarily don't feel like doing something. And many parents do, regardless of ethnicity. But somehow for Asian parents (if you're from NY you can also count in Jewish parents and Eastern European parents), it translates into "slave driver" or obsessive in the eyes of others. I can take a joke, but it's a bit tiring to hear/read the same stereotypes, whether positive or negative, appear again and again.

Spun Silver · Jun 12, 2009

Jeez, I can't believe people are so resistant to the idea that the NY Times is biased, like all media. It's extremely liberal (and if you disagree with that, you don't know anything about conservatism). It's gonna take the liberal American line on everything that has to do with children and child-rearing, and strict Korean discipline is going to seem as wrong to it as the religious right's homeschooling. Anytime it does a seemingly favorable piece about conservative matters, it's just for local color and in no way affects its basic editorial stance.

Oh, and the business of the reporter being a Korean - irrelevant. I'm talking about the underlying editorial outlook of the paper. No doubt they have Chinese, Nigerian, Indian, Catholic, Jewish, conservative, etc. writers and stories, but the paper's political stance is still liberal and anti-religious.

If you have any doubt whatsoever about that, you need to read some real conservative media or watch Fox!

End of rant. I can't say JMO on this one until I see one conservative who does NOT share my take on the NYT!

Daniel5555 · Jun 12, 2009

janetfan

Here is a link to a brief bio about this Pulitzer award winning reporter - who has also been honored for journalism in his native Korea.

And so? Where you go with this?
Titanic received 20 Oscars and still there are a lot of people who don't like it (apparently).

By the way, it was a group who received the award and not just him, and the topic of those articles was war.

Awarded to Sang-Hun Choe, Charles J. Hanley and Martha Mendoza of Associated Press for revealing, with extensive documentation, the decades-old secret of how American soldiers early in the Korean War killed hundreds of Korean civilians in a massacre at the No Gun Ri Bridge.

I don't see "extensive" documentation in the article we are talking about.

janetfan · Jun 12, 2009

Spun Silver said:
Oh, and the business of the reporter being a Korean - irrelevant. I'm talking about the underlying editorial outlook of the paper. No doubt they have Chinese, Nigerian, Indian, Catholic, Jewish, conservative, etc. writers and stories, but the paper's political stance is still liberal and anti-religious.

End of rant. I can't say JMO on this one until I see one conservative who does NOT share my take on the NYT!

In theory the reporter's nationality could be irrelevant. But when the reporter is being discredited for not understanding Korean culture then it certainly becomes relevant. Whether in a court of law or a friendly forum conversation it becomes relevant. Because facts are relevant. When a reporter has Pulitzer winning credentials (for work with the AP) and has won journalism awards for his reporting in his native Korea it becomes TOTALLY relevant. The fact is that this reporter is highly educated and very knowledgeable about Korea. Some are trying to tell us the reporter knows nothing about Korean culture and that is not factually accurate. Unless we just want to have a "he is wrong", or "he hates Yuna's mother" or "he is one of those Koreans who hate Koreans" type of conversation then his background and the cultural/intellectual knowledge of the subject he is writing about is not only relevant but also essential. (BTW, I am not so aware of this "Koreans hating other Koreans" as was mentioned before. I thought Koreans were too busy hating Apollo to have time for anyone else

).
Despite what I am saying I can admit his article might be biased and very opinionated . "But puh-leeze, don't try and tell me the reporter is a bum coz it just ain't so" (a little Palin talk

)
I read the the NY Times, sometimes Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Philadelphia Inquirer - I love newspapers. I also respect your choice to read and watch the news sources of your choice.
I liked your post too - but did not agree about the "relevance" matter - not so much as you presented it but in general.

janetfan · Jun 12, 2009

Daniel5555 said:
janetfan

And so? Where you go with this?
Titanic received 20 Oscars and still there are a lot of people who don't like it (apparently).
By the way, it was a group who received the award and not just him, and the topic of those articles was war.

I don't see "extensive" documentation in the article we are talking about.

A Pulitzer award is a very high journalism award. Maybe you aren't aware of that but most people know it is not to be compared with an Oscar.
To your other remarks - I know about the links, I am the one who posted them so you could learn more about this reporter. Look it up yourself it you want to learn more about the Award or his other writings. I sent you the links for just that purpose.

I think you are beating a dead horse here (and so am I at this point

)
The article is what it is. Nothing you or others can say will do much to change many impressions here. In fact I bet it is having the opposite effect as this topic is not of such great interest to most memebers at GS Forum. So keep it alive - that is your choice. Others may respond to you. In the end the article won't change. A better idea would be to take your energy and passion for Yuna and start a campaign against this article and reporter. That could actually accomplish something positive. Maybe even a retraction - who knows. If you are so sure about all of this - why not do something about it. Something beyond internet chatter. I hope you do and wish you good luck with it.

evangeline · Jun 12, 2009

Spun Silver said:
Jeez, I can't believe people are so resistant to the idea that the NY Times is biased, like all media. It's extremely liberal (and if you disagree with that, you don't know anything about conservatism). It's gonna take the liberal American line on everything that has to do with children and child-rearing, and strict Korean discipline is going to seem as wrong to it as the religious right's homeschooling. Anytime it does a seemingly favorable piece about conservative matters, it's just for local color and in no way affects its basic editorial stance.

Oh, and the business of the reporter being a Korean - irrelevant. I'm talking about the underlying editorial outlook of the paper. No doubt they have Chinese, Nigerian, Indian, Catholic, Jewish, conservative, etc. writers and stories, but the paper's political stance is still liberal and anti-religious.

If you have any doubt whatsoever about that, you need to read some real conservative media or watch Fox!

End of rant. I can't say JMO on this one until I see one conservative who does NOT share my take on the NYT!

Spun Silver, nobody is saying that the New York Times is not biased. Everything written by humans is biased in some way because we observe objective facts through subjective prisms. However, some journalism is more biased than others. Compared to some other media (Fox News, anyone?), I think we can honestly say that the New York Times is less biased and at least tries to maintain some standards of objectivity.

And Daniel5555, I was speaking about the New York times because mostly (though it is not always the case), articles tend to reflect the opinions of the newspapers--hence the accusations of liberal or conservative bias. That's why newspapers have editors.

Spun Silver · Jun 12, 2009

janetfan said:
In theory the reporter's nationality could be irrelevant. But when the reporter is being discredited with not understanding Korean culture then it certainly becomes relevant. Whether in a court of law or a friendly forum conversation it becomes relevant. Because facts are relevant. When a reporter has Pulitzer winning credentials (for work with the AP) and has won journalism awards for his reporting in his native Korea it becomes TOTALLY relevant. The fact is that this reporter is highly educated and very knowledgeable about Korea. Some are trying to tell us the reporter knows nothing about Korean culture and that is not factually accurate. Unless we just want to have a "he is wrong", or "he hates Yuna's mother" or "he is one of those Koreans who hate Koreans" type of conversation then his background and the cultural/intellectual knowledge of the subject he is writing about is not only relevant but also essential. (BTW, I am not so aware of this "Koreans hating other Koreans" as was mentioned before. I thought Koreans were too busy hating Apollo to have time for anyone else ).
Despite what I am saying I can admit his article might be biased and very opinionated . "But puh-leeze, don't try and tell me the reporter is a bum coz it just ain't so" (a little Palin talk )
I read the the NY Times, sometimes Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Philadelphia Inquirer - I love newspapers. I also respect your choice to read and watch the news sources of your choice.
I liked your post too - but did not agree about the "relevance" matter - not so much as you presented it but in general.

Excuse me - where the heck did I call that reporter a bum? Don't put words in my mouth.

And as for a reporter's bias - we can really only judge that by looking at his or her work. Pulitzer-prizewinning reporters for major papers have turned out to be plagiarists and fabricators, and everyone has biases that pop up in their work, not always predictably. You can't just assume based on ethnicity and resumes that someone's work is reliable and value-neutral, if such a thing is even possible.

Anyway, I don't have any opinion about the article at all. I was just making the point that people can't a priori absolve the NY Times of bias (esp liberal bias) just because it's a major paper that wins awards.

Evangeline said:
Compared to some other media (Fox News, anyone?), I think we can honestly say that the New York Times is less biased and at least tries to maintain some standards of objectivity.

I disagree totally. Obviously your bias is liberal and you distrust Fox. My bias is conservative, hence I like Fox and National Review distrust the New York Times, Time, and pretty much all the other major media. Yes, the Times sells itself as "objective." Yeah, right. During the presidential campaign, it ran four front-page stories trashing Sarah Palin in a single day. Real objective.

Daniel5555 · Jun 12, 2009

janetfan

A Pulitzer award is a very high journalism award. Maybe you aren't aware of that but most people know it is not to be compared with an Oscar.

I just don't care. I judge others by deeds, not by awards they have.
I don't like journalists as a whole, so I don't have to focus on whether it's prestigious or not. The article is bad. What has to do some awards with it? Nothing.

To your other remarks - I know about the links, I am the one who posted them so you could learn more about this reporter. Look it up yourself it you want to learn more about the Award or his other writings. I sent you the links for just that purpose.

In the first place, I said nothing about this reporter. Most of them get paid for the articles they have to publish every week/month. I said that the topic wasn't developed enough and it seems that the reporter has no much interest in it. You tried to imply that this reporter is so great (as the NY Times itself) that I have no right to question his work.

Nothing you or others can say will do much to change many impressions here. In fact I bet it is having the opposite effect as this topic is not of such great interest to most memebers at GS Forum. So keep it alive - that is your choice. Others may respond to you. In the end the article won't change.

I expressed some data that contrasted with the article. Everything I said is still true - it's not good article, it's without any clear topic, without any deeply developed theme.
I see hundreds of articles like that every week in Spanish newspapers by Spanish journalists. A lot of them have awards too. Still they are writing some nonsense... And?

A better idea would be to take your energy and passion for Yuna and start a campaign against this article and reporter.

Oh yeah, sure.
Specially considering how important it all is.

I did the best I could, I told my opinion about it all. To decide whether I'm right or not, it's up to everyone. I will be glad if other members here will think about what I wrote before. I don't pretend to do more.
Beyond that I just don't care, I'm not working at the NY Times, I'm not living in USA, it's all your problems.

szidon · Jun 12, 2009

babyalligator said:
I am also a regular reader of the NYT and spend way too much time reading it actually. lol. And trust me, I know about crazy Manhattan parents. My mother was one. Yes, I am a product of 13 years at a K-12 private school. But what I also noticed this past year was series of articles spread out over the past year concerning Asian parenting styles including one by I believe the same writer about South Korea's elite high school institutions. Another was about the large numbers of South Korea's students who study abroad and the families that are as a result, separated.

babyalligator said:
Truthfully, I think there is a lot of interest in Asian educating styles among American (or at least NY) parents.

Right. I've constantly read about that issues in NYT. This is the recent one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/o...1&scp=2&sq=chinese american, confucism&st=cse

Well, NYT is not alone. President Obama even mentioned about Korean education systems insisting the importance of the education reformation in the U.S.

Thus, I understand why the correspondent of the article dealt with Asian parents' dedication to or obsession with educating their children. He must have known his editor in New York office would love this topic!

What I don't agree is that he used the memoir of Yu-na's mom out of context and made an impression that she made Yu-na and her sister unhappy to contend his argument. I don't think Yu-na and her sister would agree with this opinion.

Daniel5555 · Jun 13, 2009

szidon

What I don't agree is that he used the memoir of Yu-na's mom out of context and made an impression that she made Yu-na and her sister unhappy to contend his argument. I don't think Yu-na and her sister would agree with this opinion.

Well, actually I think that everyone here understands this despite of what janetfan is thinking

janetfan · Jun 13, 2009

Daniel5555 said:
szidon

Well, actually I think that everyone here understands this despite of what janetfan is thinking

“What do I really want to do? I want to hang out with my friends. What don’t I like to do? My mom would scold me if I say this. Frankly, I hate skating. It’s so tiresome. I’m sick of it.”
Yu-na Kim

Fortunately for fans of Yuna's skating her mom, along with her coaches found ways to overcome the the drudgery that comes with thousands of hours of practicing - sometimes alone in a cold ice rink, sometimes at 6:00am in the morning, other times as late as midnight. And always wondering what it must be like to play with other children, and to feel happy.
I am sure every skater has felt this way at some point in their career.
Greatness demands sacrifice. That is how I feel about it.

Justin · Jun 13, 2009

Interesting article again from NYT

For those of you who post at YNKF and haven't sensed yet, janetfan is mujamba in YNKF. The way s/he puts quotation marks, capital letters, dashes, slashes and not to mention the sarcasm and hatred between the lines... it's so mujamba at YNKF.

szidon · Jun 13, 2009

janetfan said:
“What do I really want to do? I want to hang out with my friends. What don’t I like to do? My mom would scold me if I say this. Frankly, I hate skating. It’s so tiresome. I’m sick of it.”
Yu-na Kim

Fortunately for fans of Yuna's skating her mom, along with her coaches found ways to overcome the the drudgery that comes with thousands of hours of practicing - sometimes alone in a cold ice rink, sometimes at 6:00am in the morning, other times as late as midnight. And always wondering what it must be like to play with other children, and to feel happy.
I am sure every skater has felt this way at some point in their career.
Greatness demands sacrifice. That is how I feel about it.

Janetfan, you're right. Greatness demands sacrifice.

However, I don't understand why you're so sure the quoted passages above are correct. For sure Yu-na even now talks about wanting to hang out with friends. But I don't know where the above sentences exactly came from although I think I've followed all of the media coverage on Yu-na.

babyalligator · Jun 13, 2009

I actually don't find it odd that Yuna would say something like that. Isn't that the kind of thing any teenager would say when his or her parents want him or her to study for an exam or something even though there's a big party that he or she really wants to go to because everyone else will be there? LOL

I've certainly said worse directly to my mother's face (sorry about that mom) about studying or practicing flute. But I've gotten over it and Yuna obviously did. If Yuna really did truly hate skating so much, I'm sure her mom would have let her quit. It says so in her book though I don't think it says so in the article.

janetfan · Jun 13, 2009

szidon said:
Janetfan, you're right. Greatness demands sacrifice.

However, I don't understand why you're so sure the quoted passages above are correct. For sure Yu-na even now talks about wanting to hang out with friends. But I don't know where the above sentences exactly came from although I think I've followed all of the media coverage on Yu-na.

Here is the link, originally posted here by Evangeline back on the second page of this topic.

http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004021114318&path_dir=
20040211

Since there seems to already be a dispute over the opinions expressed in the NY Times article I would say the following:
I do not see how my previous post quoting Yuna's comments could in any way be perceived as negative. If anything I think I am expressing an understanding that most skaters are pushed hard by a parent(s) or sometimes a coach. Actually, Yuna is one of the luckier ones in that her talent and the way her parents sacrificed for her seems to have paid off. Many are not so fortunate.
I am also a fan of Yuna's skating and think she seems to be a nice, thoughtful and level headed young lady. That doesn't mean I have to think she is perfect or that every article written about Yuna or her family has to show 100% approval of every aspect of her life. It demonstrates a flight from reality to think that way.

As to other comments I made about the NY Times article - I have clearly stated in most of them that I believe the article could be biased and not the fairest representation of the facts from the mother's book. I am a free enough thinker to admit and understand that possibilty.
I got a little curious and decided to find out more about the reporter who wrote the story. Turns out he has a good record and has won some major awards for his reporting over the years. If bringing that fact to light somehow displays "hatred" then I respectfully disagree with those that may feel that way.

I would be the first to say that what comes out of the mouths of younger teenagers does not have to be taken in anyway other than that was how they felt the moment they were asked a question. I surely agree Yuna could have given a totally different answer to a similar question even a day later.

I fail to see the point of some of this. The new York Times is one of the wolrd's leading newspapers. Of course they are opinionated as has already been pointed out. All papers tend to be opinionated - that is the point afterall

I feel uneasy at times about the degree of loyalty and blind love shown to certain skaters by some of their fans. To tell you the truth I will probably buy the book if it comes out in an English edition. But my reason for reading it won't have a thing to do with the NY Times article. It will simply be to hear the thoughts of a mother who sacrificed so much and pushed her kid so hard to become a skating champion.

evangeline · Jun 13, 2009

szidon said:
Janetfan, you're right. Greatness demands sacrifice.

However, I don't understand why you're so sure the quoted passages above are correct. For sure Yu-na even now talks about wanting to hang out with friends. But I don't know where the above sentences exactly came from although I think I've followed all of the media coverage on Yu-na.

That quotation comes from this article.

Justin, I don't think janetfan is expressing any "sarcasm and hatred" in or between his lines. In fact, janetfan is being perfectly polite in expressing his opinion, which obviously differs from the opinions of other posters on this board. But that's why online forums exist, no?

Daniel5555 · Jun 13, 2009

janetfan

“What do I really want to do? I want to hang out with my friends. What don’t I like to do? My mom would scold me if I say this. Frankly, I hate skating. It’s so tiresome. I’m sick of it.”
Yu-na Kim

I already wrote about that on page 5:

Ms. Park just did what every good mother would do. Maybe she was pushing it too much sometimes, but what's true is that Yuna never said her mother was too strict. Oh-oh, ok... she said that when she was 14. Well, I hated my mother too sometimes at that age. You never got scolded for something?

So what are you now, Captain Obvious or something?
The problem with you is that you seem not to read what others write. I (and others) just pointed on some flaws of the article. You perceived it as fanaticism and offence to the NY Times and reporter.

I am also a fan of Yuna's skating and think she seems to be a nice, thoughtful and level headed young lady. That doesn't mean I have to think she is perfect or that every article written about Yuna or her family has to show 100% approval of every aspect of her life.

Of course, but also if something is not OK with the article, I can say it, right?

babyalligator

If Yuna really did truly hate skating so much, I'm sure her mom would have let her quit.

Actually when Yuna seriously wanted to quit, it wasn't her mother who insisted on not to do so. At least from what I know...

janetfan · Jun 13, 2009

Daniel5555 said:
I already wrote about that on page 5:

Quote:
Ms. Park just did what every good mother would do. Maybe she was pushing it too much sometimes, but what's true is that Yuna never said her mother was too strict. Oh-oh, ok... she said that when she was 14. Well, I hated my mother too sometimes at that age. You never got scolded for something?

So what are you now, Captain Obvious or something?
The problem with you is that you seem not to read what others write. I (and others) just pointed on some flaws of the article. You perceived it as fanaticism and offence to the NY Times and reporter.
Of course, but also if something is not OK with the article, I can say it, right? [QUOTE

Of course you can answer and object, make points about the article or other poster's comments. I appreciate some of what you have to say and also disagree with some of your comments.
BTW, I believe you quoted "babyalligator" on this post and not sure if you meant too. Right above the "Captain Obvious" remarks. Not sure what you meant there but those comments were not mine.

new article about Yuna and her mom

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