Any Sasha updates?

I agree that when a jump is well landed, it really completes the overall effect of a great jump. It seems like a lot of the top skaters have "lazy" free legs, but the rest of their jumps are so well done, they make up for it on other aspects. And when Sasha completes her jumps, yes, they are a thing of beauty, but she also lands on wrong edges or scratches out landings, which usually follows two foot landings. Yes, landings are a part of the whole package, but Mao, for example, has other strengths that Sasha lacks-speed in entrances, height, distance and the ability to stand up. So, Mao SHOULD get more points for her jumps.

Look at Sasha's jumps in Torino. On her 7 jumping passes, she had 4 clean passes, +0.57 GOE for the 3salchow,and 0GOE for the rest. The other 3 problematic passes had -GOE's. Even in the SP, arguably her best showing, she had -GOE's on two jumping passes.

Also-Sasha has always been greatly rewarded for her presentation ability. Her PCS marks showed it.

One more thing---I agree a lot of polish, finishing off moves seems to be a thing of the past. I blame COP in a way. Skaters have to cram more in to get points and it seems like sometimes the sum of the parts (as is COP) are less than the whole integrity of a program.

In the big events, the best skater doesn't win. The best COMPETITOR wins.

And when Sasha completes her jumps, yes, they are a thing of beauty, but she also lands on wrong edges or scratches out landings, which usually follows two foot landings. Yes, landings are a part of the whole package, but Mao, for example, has other strengths that Sasha lacks-speed in entrances, height, distance and the ability to stand up. So, Mao SHOULD get more points for her jumps.

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I think her jumps tend to look very fragile. In fact, the two jumps she completed in this performance are the strongest I've seen from her in a really long time.

One more thing---I agree a lot of polish, finishing off moves seems to be a thing of the past. I blame COP in a way. Skaters have to cram more in to get points and it seems like sometimes the sum of the parts (as is COP) are less than the whole integrity of a program.

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I agree.

chuckm said:

But she is also SLOW.

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The music is slow. She is skating on a small rink in a spotlight. Harder than it looks.

jeff goldblum said:

I don't care how slow she is, nobody - Yu Na Kim, Mao Asada, Joannie Rochette, Caroline Zhang and the like - presents elements as beautifully as Sasha Cohen. It's really a shame that the things she does don't seem to get as much credit out on the ice as they should. It really is all the small things that add up in Cohen's skating.

What stands out most is her landing positions. Is this even judged? It seems like once a skater's blade hits the ice - in a fully rotated position of course - and some semblance of an edge is held, the jump can be given full credit and in some cases high grades of execution. In my mind, the triple toe and triple salchow she does in this program are worth far more than any triple axel by Mao Asada. One needs only to compare the landing positions. Sasha's back is fully upright; the knee deeply bent, with a nice crease between the thigh and the upper body and the free leg parallel to the ice. I shouldn't single out Mao Asada, as most of the top skaters don't have great landing positions these days, but hers serves as the best example. She's high up on the landing leg, the free leg hovers just above the ice, the arms droop, and the whole position is over almost before you get a chance to see it. I simply don't understand skaters getting positive GOE's on jumps landed in this manner. Yu Na Kim and several others are just as guilty. I was always taught that the relation between the upper body and the landing leg should be such that you could hold a sheet of paper between in the crease between the two.

I'm always perplexed when I compare practice videos of Mirai Nagasu with those of her competitive programs. When doing jumps in isolation she has probably the most beautiful landing positions of any skater currently competing, and yet in competition that seems to be totally forgotten.

I guess was a rather long rant about landing positions, but my main point is simply that most skaters lack this level of finish in their competitive programs, or exhibition programs for that matter. Landings of jumps, the exits from spins and all of that just don't seem to make a difference. These are the details that seem to be lost in the current incarnation of the sport. I more than welcome her back to competitive skating.

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:agree:

My opinion completely. Every single motion she makes is planned. Every line is perfect. I agree that sometimes I wish she would hold those landing for the whole program. Come on, beauty like that HAS to be worth something extra.

oh my , she still UR"S her jumps, She is skating slower than she did before,
and by the Same old program, different music, different placments of her jumps, slow, ur, and low. different placing of her spiral, but seen the program,
all she did was throw in bit and pieces of her (so called Best Programs) put music and skate.
they will cheat for her like always. she doesn't even try to skate her best,
she just assume people will falll for it. and boy do they.

Tinymavy15 said:

The music is slow. She is skating on a small rink in a spotlight. Harder than it looks.

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Every skater has to skate on a rink with a spotlight. After touring with Stars on Ice shouldn't she be used to that?

tinymarie
they are effortless when they are UR's low, and slow. like sasha always has been but they (judges) never marked her down for it. like theydid michelle.
yes, i will bring it up (until the Us judges and international judges correct it).
they didn't go on name (2002 olympics or pedigree)like scott hamilton told them do. even though they did for all the other olympic champions.
so they should not do it every again for any other olympic champion go by name, pedigree, country, origin, race,politic, how they skate that night.
by what i saw Joannie should be Sasha out as well as Caroline, Rachel, Mirai,
Ashley, Kimmie.
Sasha is Not good enough.

One strong possitive check for Joannie, is that, more than others, she stays with the character of the music throughout the program, and that Flamenco (Tango) had many changes of tempo. She's looking top 3 to me.

Sarah is coming along.

fairly4 said:

tinymarie
they are effortless when they are UR's low, and slow. like sasha always has been but they (judges) never marked her down for it. like theydid michelle.
yes, i will bring it up (until the Us judges and international judges correct it).
they didn't go on name (2002 olympics or pedigree)like scott hamilton told them do. even though they did for all the other olympic champions.
so they should not do it every again for any other olympic champion go by name, pedigree, country, origin, race,politic, how they skate that night.
by what i saw Joannie should be Sasha out as well as Caroline, Rachel, Mirai,
Ashley, Kimmie.
Sasha is Not good enough.

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I really do not feel like argueing, but I never saw Sasha get credit or an underoatted jump. I look at that now, even from her old videos. Both she and Michelle actually landed clean triples all the time. The only time i remember sasha's jumps cheated was when she tried the 3/3 combos.

Joannie has proved she can make it on the podium and I would not be surprised to see her there again at the olympics. The other american girls you named all have had many underroation calls in the past and none of Sasha's grace, musicallity or maturity.

This program has the potential to be a classic when all is said and done. Sasha appears confident and at ease with the music. Any news on who she decided to work with on choreography this year? David Wilson perhaps? I say put on the lights and bring it on.

NYscorp6 said:

This program has the potential to be a classic when all is said and done. Sasha appears confident and at ease with the music. Any news on who she decided to work with on choreography this year? David Wilson perhaps? I say put on the lights and bring it on.

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I really hope she kicks-butt and proves all the nay-sayers wrong

MKFSfan said:

I agree that when a jump is well landed, it really completes the overall effect of a great jump. It seems like a lot of the top skaters have "lazy" free legs, but the rest of their jumps are so well done, they make up for it on other aspects. And when Sasha completes her jumps, yes, they are a thing of beauty, but she also lands on wrong edges or scratches out landings, which usually follows two foot landings. Yes, landings are a part of the whole package, but Mao, for example, has other strengths that Sasha lacks-speed in entrances, height, distance and the ability to stand up. So, Mao SHOULD get more points for her jumps.

Look at Sasha's jumps in Torino. On her 7 jumping passes, she had 4 clean passes, +0.57 GOE for the 3salchow,and 0GOE for the rest. The other 3 problematic passes had -GOE's. Even in the SP, arguably her best showing, she had -GOE's on two jumping passes.

Also-Sasha has always been greatly rewarded for her presentation ability. Her PCS marks showed it.

One more thing---I agree a lot of polish, finishing off moves seems to be a thing of the past. I blame COP in a way. Skaters have to cram more in to get points and it seems like sometimes the sum of the parts (as is COP) are less than the whole integrity of a program.

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In my opinion the only thing about Mao's jumps that is "good" is the .5 seconds that she is in the air. I know that's obviously what makes up 95 percent of a jump's value despite its being the smallest amount time-wise, but there really is so much more to it than that. Though I have not seen Mao skate in person, I would say your assertion that her jumps cover a lot of distance is not correct. High, yes; broad, no. Also, you mention speed of entrance, which I entirely agree, but that of course puts in contrast the fact that a lot of times she doesn't have much speed coming out. I also think it's unfair to use the term usually in qualifying your statements about Sasha's jumps. I think I know what you mean, but it makes the sentence sound like a large majority of her jumps are two footed, eked out, etc. This is all nitpicking of course. My point is that I don't want to see a high, soaring, magnificent jump if what comes before and afterwards looks terrible. While I consider Sasha's presentation of her jumps a quality which should be rewarded by the PCS, I also feel it is something that has to be reflected in the TES.

Also, presenting Sasha's marks from previous competitions is sort of irrelevant. The point I wish to make is that the judging is flawed in the first place, and that for me, I would much rather see beautifully executed jumps with true, textbook technique judged highly, rather than triple-triple combinations which to my eye are merely "pulled off."

The funny thing is that Sasha used to jump much larger than she does now. Her double axel during her novice and days was so big it was kind of scary.

Also, as a side note, the slow motion of her triple toe shows perfectly what I mentioned in the toe jumps thread: all triple toe loops take off forward.

jeff goldblum, you hit the nail on the head with all your statements regarding Sasha!

I too wish that what she does ~ textbook positions, extension to the nth degree, pointed toes, inflections, turn of the head, maturity, et al ~ would be given +++GOE, because she makes what is difficult look easy/sublime. When it is not.

I recall when Sasha first entered the scene way back in 1999 or so, I saw her on one of those pro-am specials in the Fall. I remember they saved her for last (side note: my fav Sarah Hughes also made her debut skating to a Beatles medley). And I recall how they all raved over her, this itty bitty child in a red dress, especially Dick Button, lol. At the time I thought she was good, I could see the attraction, but she didn't really make an impression upon me EXCEPT her pointed toes/extension/ramrod straight back/tilt of the head. In all my years of watching skating, since the days of Dorothy Hamill, I had never seen anything like that ~ the *pointed toes* ~ I'll never forget that (only one that comes close is the 1996 All-Around Women's Olympic Gymnastic Champion Lilia Podkopayeva; she & Sasha have perfect toepoint).

Anyhow, she's come a looooong way since that time 10 years ago, yes, she still has perfect toepoint/extension/ramrod straight back/tilt of the head, but more than all else she has maturity! You can see it in the way she takes her time with every move, every extension (no longer rushed), and especially in the way she lands her jumps/her edging (no longer wobbly, rushed, immature). She's now a lady in every sense of the word. She's grown up, and what a joy it is to behold her now as a woman instead of that itty bitty little child from long ago.

Bravo, Sasha Cohen, Bravo!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

P.S. and once again I see that she has added her own unique little touches here & there ~ e.g. after the triple toe she does this Boitanoesque hand over the head move ~ exquisite. And she's added a unique move to her first spin while extending herself even more with the Biellmann by laying her head backwards.

No doubt Sasha's straight as a board back, tight back spin, pointed toes, and when landed well, the held out landing edge IS a thing of beauty. But you can't overlook the fact she also wobbles on the edge of both the lutz and flip (not as severe as Caroline, but go watch, it is there), has little transitions into her jumps, very little speed or ice coverage. You can dissect every skater's jumps and be VERY hard pressed to find one who can cover all the bases above average. Like, for example, Irina had HUGE spring, speed/transitions into jumps and tight rotations. But I thought more attention could be paid to her air positions and landing positions (very little flow out). I never got the hype over young Sasha. The 1st time I saw her live in 2000, I noticed WOW moves/extensions and scratchy landings. She also had a bad habit of landing on the inside edge of her jumps. Most skaters DO jump bigger when they were tiny. Sasha, Michelle, they both had HUGE double axles and much more height, but as they grew, gravity takes it's toll! No doubt she has come a long way in those 9 years that have passed, but jumps are not her strength. You were the one who said she didn't receive credit for the way she presents elements to the highest quality, so I brought up Torino since that was supposedly her iconic performance. She won Silver despite three botched jump bases BECAUSE of the utmost quality of her other elements/presentation (and yes, her competition didn't fare much better).

Yu-Na is probably the only current lady I think has more of the right pieces put together for her jumps, I know she's lacking a loop, but that 3flip/3toe is out of this world is speed, height, ice coverage, flow and consistency. Also her 2ax/3toe!!! Michelle is another I can watch jump all day. She didn't get much more height than Sasha, and didn't spin as fast as Sasha, but she was correct and her landing edges, flow out have always been a beautiful thing.

I love watching Mao because she does so many really GOOD things that I can overlook some of the things she lacks. She is a skater brought up under COP, and I think some things are sacrificed to use the time to gain points, like when she lands off the lutz and immediately does a fan type spiral-her lutz is weak, but that landing enhances the difficulty of the jump and probably helps to balance out the "e!" when landed cleanly. I only used Mao in my example because you brought her up. Personally, I think Yu-Na and even Joannie have better jumps as a whole. Mao's 3axle is great when she can land them, but I would much rather see 5-6 clean triples and a huge 2axle out of the difficult spread eagle entrance she uses.

Just to clarify, the "usually" comment you took offense to was to mean that I think Sasha's scratchy landings are usually due to two-foots or landing on the wrong edge. I didn't say Sasha "usually" two-foots or lands on wrong edges.

Nadine-When did Sasha add the hand over her head to the triple toe? That is great! That position in the 1st spin you speak of, not new, she has done it before but has ended up taking out of the program as season progresses. I saw her do it live in the debut of Nutcracker and thought it was magnificent, only to find it gone by TEB. I think her back injury dictated the need to remove it.

chuckm said:

But she is also SLOW.

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Well, why don't we skate really, really fast to some slow music??? That makes a lot of sense. Why don't we throw several triple jumps in a show performance, that makes a lot of sense.

Why don't we just rip her heart out and serve it on a platter while we're at it???!!!!

Dee4707 said:

Why don't we just rip her heart out and serve it on a platter while we're at it???!!!!

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All the poster said was that she was slow. I would hardly call that ripping her heart out. Sasha is returning to competitive skating, therefore she is going to have a lot of criticism (some constructive and some not) throw her way just like the other skaters.

And she was slow, especially compared to Joannie's performance at the same show.

MKFSfan said:

Michelle is another I can watch jump all day. She didn't get much more height than Sasha, and didn't spin as fast as Sasha, but she was correct and her landing edges, flow out have always been a beautiful thing.

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Great post!

But I have to disagree about Michelle. Some of her jumps, like most of her triple toes were beautifully landed, I always like to think of that final triple toe in her Lyra Angelica program at nationals where she just held that edge to that triumphant music....
But her lutzes, especially in the early years had very slow landings, many times, she was nearly at a stand still. In the later years she did flutz.

i love to skate said:

Sasha is returning to competitive skating, therefore she is going to have a lot of criticism (some constructive and some not) throw her way just like the other skaters.

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Thanks for the update on that...I would have never guessed!!!

Dee4707 said:

Thanks for the update on that...I would have never guessed!!!

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Then why don't you stop overreacting when negative things are pointed out about her skating?

i love to skate said:

Then why don't you stop overreacting when negative things are pointed out about her skating?

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Did you just hit the nail on the head???

i love to skate said:

All the poster said was that she was slow. I would hardly call that ripping her heart out. Sasha is returning to competitive skating, therefore she is going to have a lot of criticism (some constructive and some not) throw her way just like the other skaters.

And she was slow, especially compared to Joannie's performance at the same show.

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I agree. Not that skating slow in an exhibition is necessarily a bad thing, though. It depends on the music.