What If....No More Tests???

Actually, 10 months ago, I was on inlines and not interested in this forum.

And there is nothing wrong with the observation. She has some very nice single jumps. I have some very nice double jumps. Rachael Flatt has some very nice triple jumps. ..... It is an observation, not an insult....:yes:

Seriously, why the prejudice against jumpers? It is not this way in roller. They respect the jumpers there. Anyone who can land a triple is almost a god.....No one calls them "jumping beans"...(btw. I'm starting to love that name. Have ordered several shirts for practice with jumping beans on them.) It seems almost as if there is an active dislike on ice at the adult level for the jumpers. They kids aren't like this. The ice kids still respect the jumpers. It is only the adults who seem to have a problem. I wonder why?........Don't you want to see an adult land triples after age 30? If anyone does mange it, it will be one of the "jumping beans.":yes:

bondgirl said:

And there is nothing wrong with the observation. She has some very nice single jumps.

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I'd appreciate it if you'd not address me in the third person. It's the least you could do considering you dragged me into this by posting a link to my video.

Speaking of which...

bondgirl said:

I have some very nice double jumps.

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If you're going to post everyone else's YouTube videos, why don't you post yours? No, really... let's see 'em!

bondgirl said:

Seriously, why the prejudice against jumpers.

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I haven't seen one poster -- on this message board, or on SkatingForums (where you post as Pandora) or the Competitive Adult Skaters Yahoo board (where you post as bondmovies) -- be prejudiced against jumpers. Not one. What I have seen is people trying to help you, to tell it like it is, and instead of thanking them, all you have done is insult them and tell them the problem lies with them and not you. If every one of us is telling you the same thing, at some point you have to realize we know what we're talking about.

ETA: You keep saying we don't "respect" jumpers. I do, and I'm sure everyone else does too. Immensely. The difference is, all the jumpers we respect have worked their butts off to get where they are. They didn't try to create new events in order to circumvent the system and suit their own needs. And we don't treat them like the "gods" you say you have in roller. We are all just people, trying to do our best in a sport we all love. A lot of us have worked very hard to get adult skating to where it is today, so to have someone come along and try to tear down our hard work? That's what a lot of us don't respect. Simple as that.

I referred to you in third person because I was answering another post. If you prefer I will use second person and address you directly: You have some very nice single jumps.... (That is not an insult and it is not ment sarcastically. If you took offense to me referring to your video, I am sorry. I was arguing with another poster who, it seemed to me, had implied a much higher jump level in that division. There is nothing wrong with single jumps. However, I believed this poster had implied a different level of jumps in that particular division.....so I referenced videos off youtube. Did not mean an insult by it. Just an observation.)

I did not post a link to myself because I only recently put up ice skating. HOWEVER...if you really want to see me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sum3u3PuGF8. Yes, I wrap my jumps. I come form roller where this is NOT considered a technique flaw. Yes, in any jump event on ice I would get slammed on GOE. (But would get credit for fully rotating the jump. Know this for a fact. Asked USFS technical expert on an email.) Just started 2axel and the triples a few weeks ago. Can't say that I will ever land them, but I am going to try. (But I am old with a bad back so we will see.....)

I have to disagree with you. At the adult level, you DO disrespect the jumpers. (Jumping beans, pleeeeze. Actually, I like my new shirts. Will wear them whenever I practice.) Don't you realize that it is the jumping beans that will get adults their triples????!! Natalie Shelby is a lovely skater. I see what you mean about edges. She is very beautiful.....however....based upon her element level at this point in her career she is skating at roughly an equililvant level to a standard intermediate skater. (2axel and level 3-4 spins.) There is an elephant in the room. The jumps, as much as you disparage them, DO dictate your level. I'm sorry, but it is true. You can argue and ignore it all you want.....But it won't go away....(Like that pesky elephant.) The jumps denote your level on roller and on ice. Maybe you would prefer to see a beautiful "Dorothy Hammill" routine full of georgous edges and low level doubles. (Most of the adults seem to prefer that.) I am not arguing with your preferences. (That is personal. I perfer Bonaly, of course. But then, as I said that is a personal preference.) However....element wise she is skating a juvenille level (maybe prejuv) routine.Of course, it is with all positive GOE's (which is what I believe you are trying to point out and I DO understand that.) However....it is still a juvenille level routine......

Actually, I DO get some respect on ice....from the KIDS. (And not only because I am an adult. They show respect/accept me because I can still jump like them.) THEY respect the jumpers. It is only the adults who seem to have a chip on their shoulder and write/say things like you see here. The kids are very nice.'
And I do not expect to be worshiped the way it was on roller...but I also do not expect to be insulted. Yes, I do want to change your system. Frankly, it never envisioned "us." (Adults who come from other sports who find freestyle easy, but not the moves.) Heck, why NOT change the system.......YOU DID!! Test level restrictions that are MUCH harsher than on kids because adults (supposedly) find jumping harder.....Well, I don't. But the rules were changed to help YOU. As I have been lectured, when the adult events started they really didn't have a test structure requirement or restrictions, then YOU changed the rules to suit YOU. So there you have it. It seems people DO change rules, don't they?
And just because the majority of people support something does NOT make that thing right. If this technology existed two hundred years ago and I was on a message board trying to argue for the women's vote with other women, I guarantee I would also have been ridiculed by the majority of women. You ice skaters are so conservative. The is nothing wrong with change. Don't be threatened by it.

Actually the committee over the past ten years has changed the adult structure. The adult committee is a large committee and represents skaters from all levels adult and masters, pairs, dance and free skate. Proposals are brought to the committee they go through Lexie and then are brought to the committees where they are debated on.

No one individual changed the rules they were done for the betterment of adult skating the fact that you DO NOT want to participate in the current adult structure is an issue YOU have. Every other adult skater who wants to participate follows the rules. Once again, why do you think you are an exception to the rules that everyone follows.

I like watching good skating, that means clean jumps with good technique, solid spins that are centered with nice clean positions, transitions that maintain flow and interpet the music well and match the phrasing of the music. I prefer Abbott and Daisuke to Plushenko and Joubert. They all do awesome jumps but some have simple 2 foot stroking between quads where others have intricate beautiful steps between jumps and into jumps, things flow easily. Skating is about making it look easy...all of it.

You have really managed to alienate yourself, you don't listen and the mantra, everyone hates me because I am a jumping bean is just silly. No one thinks your skills are that awesome other than you. Why you think you don't have to follow the same rules every other skater in the US has to follow is just confusing.

I do agree with you in that it is very unlikely that USFS will ever change the rules. While you find this fortunate, I find it very unfortunate. But, as you mention, that is how it is....:yes:

But it is interesting the amount of .....nastiness....that has been directed at an idea. My proposals have always been on a objective level. Even when I referred to videos to demonstrate the jump elements at certain levels (sorry, dasies), I did not do so to be intentionally mean or nasty to anyone....

Cannot say the same for many of the other posters on these boards. There is a difference between attacking an idea and attacking a person. Maybe you do not like the fact that I disagree with your sport/system, but as I said, I did so objectively, not personally. So if I made enemies, just by implying that there, perhaps, could be an additional event added, (so that people like me could compete), then that is too bad. Maybe it is for the best. If this is the attitude of the adult skating community, (personal attacks and nastiness to anyone who dares to disagree with them), then I really don't want to be part of it.

But something good DID come out of all this.....Believe it or not, on both of these boards, I have been contacted by a few skaters who actually seemed friendly. They just did not want to publically support me because they did not want to get slammed. So I guess I did build some "goodwill" after all........

As for my skating skills. Will post what adult camps I plan on attending. Coskater, maybe YOU could come in person to practice with me. (Since you in particular seem very taken with me. ) We could do doubles together. Maybe even triple attempts. It will be fun.

bondgirl said:

based upon her element level at this point in her career she is skating at roughly an equililvant level to a standard intermediate skater. (2axel and level 3-4 spins.) There is an elephant in the room. The jumps, as much as you disparage them, DO dictate your level. I'm sorry, but it is true.

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It may be true that jumps dictate level in roller skating, but it is not true on ice.

Skating skills determine level, especially within the US.

There's a minimum level of jumping skill that's required to pass the freestyle US freestyle tests, but it's pretty low compared to what's normal for that level.

There's a typical level of jump content that's allowed and expected at a given level. For standard-track intermediate and up, that's pretty much determined by the short program requirements.

And then for the really competitive events there's a much higher level of all skills including jumps needed to succeed at that level.

If I see a skater I don't know on a freestyle session, I can usually make a pretty good guess what level s/he competes at based on the basic skating. When I see the jumps, that might alter my guess a little bit, based more on the quality than on exactly which jumps are or aren't being practiced. If I see a clean double axel, that still doesn't change my mind, because we see those from skaters at juvenile through senior level. We also see cheated double axels at all those levels.

Skaters also self-select according to age to some degree, to stay with their general age group even if their skills including jumps lag a bit behind the norm at that level, or to stay back at a level where they can be nationally competitive if they have the jumps at young ages but don't have the physical power to keep up with older, bigger skaters.

So there is a huge range of ability at the intermediate level, for example. That includes skaters who barely passed the the intermediate MITF and those who had already passed senior MITF with ease. It also includes skaters who still struggle with the easier doubles, and skaters who are getting pretty competent with the easier triples. And there isn't always a direct correlation between

Things are a lot more complicated with adults because there are so many other variables involved. For most adult skaters jump difficulty is not the strong point, and the levels have been defined in ways that make sense for most of those skaters.

Yes, there are exceptions. But if you want to join in the process, you need to become a skater with good jumps and care about the skating. That's the name of the sport. There is no sport on ice for jumpers who don't skate.

Yes, and that is unfortunate. I don't have the money or connections to start such a sport, or I would...

Yes, I understand there is no DIRECT corelation between particular jumps and level, however.....when I referred to levels I was implying what would be "competitive" at that particular level at Standard Nationals. (For example, juvenilles generally do all doubles, double combos, maybe a 2axel. Yes, there are exceptions. Possible triple attempt or even clean triple.....But generally you won't see a juvenille with a full set of triples up to and including lutz. Also, at national level, generally won't see a juvenille with exceptional edges and only single jumps.) So, as you know, there is a very general corelation between the two.

Juvenile is capped at 2 Axel no triples allowed. Most intermediate need 2A and 3S or 3T with a 3-2 combo to do well. Jr men @ mids, 3rd place skater landed 3A was last years Nov champ, 3-3 combo is becoming the norm at Jr, these skaters will have hips that are all metal/procelain by 40... Bonaly, was at my surgeon's office for a labral tear 2 years ago, that's what jumping gets, Kwan and Lipinski as well. Everyone might want to look into investing in companies that make metal joints, they are going to be popular. Same surgeon in conjunction with the Cleveland clinic gave a talk at last years US nats about hip dysplasia, not fun to be crippled by jumps at 20.

I see a lot of skaters at the doctor's office at my annual visit.

bondgirl said:

But the rules were changed to help YOU. As I have been lectured, when the adult events started they really didn't have a test structure requirement or restrictions, then YOU changed the rules to suit YOU.

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These had better be plural, collective "you's" and not you accusing me, singularly, of something. Because, how dare you?

As coskater said, we decide the rules as a committee, to promote the general welfare of adult skating. Then anything we come up with still has to be approved by the board of directors of US Figure Skating, and then approved by the entire general council of delegates, who represent clubs around the country. It's the same for all of figure skating, not just adult. Of course adult skating didn't have a test structure when it started; that's like expecting a person to walk and talk the second he or she is born. The program had to be created based on the needs of its constituents -- the needs of the many, not the few -- the same way the program for the standard-track was created years and years ago. Actually, the same way laws in our country are written -- for the many, not the few.

I could go line by line on the rest of your post, but it would be a waste of time because you clearly only hear what you want to hear. You repeat the same stuff in every post -- mostly accusing other people of being nasty and not looking in a mirror at your own actions. I've got news for you: Just because you say you're approaching a subject objectively does not make it so.

Good luck.

It should be added that the committee changes every year people come and people go, it is not the same small group of people every year, this is the same for all committees. We work in cooperation for the better of the sport as a whole. If we did everything for the few we would have no events and just give out a gold medal to single people as the events would be composed of just one person because, they would all say, I can't do this, I can't do, that, I'm to tall, I'm to old, I'm to young, I started at 40, I started at 50, I can't do moves. This is what we strive to avoid, because we are adults, these are the rules and unlike roller skating we have them and they are for the whole, they level the playing field, and they benefit the group.

You say the same thing again and again, and somehow my dispersal of factual information is viewed by you as an attack because it doesn't agree with you. Pandora/bondgirl/bondmovies you are not objective, you have a none to subtle agenda, the people who disagree with you are members of the sport? We participate, you don't, and that is your loss alone, you won't ever be able to particpate because you think the rules don't apply to you. They do.

That is your loss. Goodbye, goodluck.

daisies, Of course I ment the pural, collective "you."

bondgirl, you'd get a lot different tone/response if you were coming here with a background of having truly worked at moves/testing for, say, 2 years, and having failed to pass a single test. That would indicate that you truly tried, and truly could not do the requirements.

However, it's obvious that would not be the case. It's obvious to everyone that you could pass the moves tests, and frankly you could pass them with a whole lot less effort than many adult skaters. Your issue is that you don't want to do the tests, because you personally don't see the value/need/point of doing them. You yourself have basically said, "I can't go out right now and with absolutely no training/practice, pass junior moves. Therefore, I don't want to try, and instead I think they should change the competition requirement rules for me." That's a very different circumstance, and that's mainly what people are reacting to.

Hard work is what's respected in this sport, and wanting to circumvent it is NOT respected---and viola, here we are.

Yes, some of the moves are challenging. So are the jumps--it's just that you happen to like the challenge of jumping, and not of footwork. But that is your personal issue, not a flaw in the structure of the sport.

backspin said:

bondgirl, you'd get a lot different tone/response if you were coming here with a background of having truly worked at moves/testing for, say, 2 years, and having failed to pass a single test. That would indicate that you truly tried, and truly could not do the requirements.

However, it's obvious that would not be the case. It's obvious to everyone that you could pass the moves tests, and frankly you could pass them with a whole lot less effort than many adult skaters. Your issue is that you don't want to do the tests, because you personally don't see the value/need/point of doing them. You yourself have basically said, "I can't go out right now and with absolutely no training/practice, pass junior moves. Therefore, I don't want to try, and instead I think they should change the competition requirement rules for me." That's a very different circumstance, and that's mainly what people are reacting to.

Hard work is what's respected in this sport, and wanting to circumvent it is NOT respected---and viola, here we are.

Yes, some of the moves are challenging. So are the jumps--it's just that you happen to like the challenge of jumping, and not of footwork. But that is your personal issue, not a flaw in the structure of the sport.

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Could not have said it better. Honestly, I can understand and sympathize with Bondgirl's desire to just jump and not have to pass all of these tests before being allowed to compete. We each have something that makes this system challenging for us, and that challenge is different for each person. What I--and others on these boards--are reacting to so negatively is this attitude that the system should be changed for ONE PERSON (since there doesn't seem to be anyone else interested in making this major rule change). From time to time, someone will have an idea and bounce it off of people on these discussion boards, but if that person finds that others don't share that interest or point of view, he/she will drop it. It isn't personal!

Another reason this one person campaign is getting a negative response is that there are so many adult skaters out there who CAN'T pass all of the tests due to some physical limitation that is beyond their control. In light of that fact, it's pretty hard to sympathize with someone who COULD pass the tests with a reasonable amount of effort but just doesn't want to put in that effort. That's a slap in the face to those who are willing to do the work but can't.

You are right. Going to let this drop. (At least on the boards.) Not worth getting everyone upset. :no:
Will persue proposal with committee. Only get USFS committee members upset. (Just kidding. I hope.)

Actually, I will let you guys (girls) in on something embarrassing but funny. Last time I ever skated in competition was a roller (quad) regionals back in the late 1980s. (1986, I think. I was 17.) I never actually competed on inlines. (There are competitons for inline but they are mainly just regionals and nats. Both were several states away.) Anyways, I bommed SO BADLY. (Always had trouble with my nerves. Sometimes did well....sometimes...um... not so well....) How someone who can land doubles can fall on a bunny hop I don't know.....but I managed, along with half the jumps in my routine and the other half I singled. Even fell on a spin or two....YIKES!!! I still have nightmares. Seriously.:disapp: If I ever even got to compete on ice, I'd probably just freak out and do singles anyways......Nerves.....

Sports psychologist said only way to beat this is to force myself into as many competitions as possible. The first few might be.....embarrassing ....but eventually, I'll become more comfortable with it, (especially if I know there is a new one every few weeks and it's not all or nothing like regionals.) Guess that is the main reason why I am bothering the USFS and not just going to ISI. USFS has so many competitions. I cannot afford to travel very far. ISI has mabe one or two a year within my traveling distance vs nine or ten for USFS.
Most likely will never get this event passed....but at least can say I tried....:yes:
Do any of you have trouble like this with your nerves? How did you fix it? Did you do what sports doc said? Or did something else work? It is weird. Sometimes I really didn't get too nervous at all, and sometimes....It was just horrible.:disapp:

bondgirl said:

Do any of you have trouble like this with your nerves? How did you fix it? Did you do what sports doc said? Or did something else work? It is weird. Sometimes I really didn't get too nervous at all, and sometimes....It was just horrible.:disapp:

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Honestly, any performance in front of a crowd will help with nerves. You will always be nervous, that part never goes away, but the key is to learn to "manage" the nerves under pressure. That is accomplished by doing as many performances (competitions, tests, whatever) as possible.

I once heard a skater say that they got nervous before every competition because it *mattered* & was important to them. I like this concept & it has been true for me in life as well as in skating.

A long time ago, I did 13 USFSA competitions + passed 4 tests in one year (2 FS, 1 FM, 1 Dance level). It was a very busy year & because I did this volume of performances, I even got an award from my skating club for being the most active competitor/tester. The most important lesson I learned that year was how to manage my nerves under pressure much better and it really worked.

Great Advice!

Kristin,
Wow!! That was quite a busy year!!! Congratulations on doing all that!! And you say it helped getting the nerves under control??!!....Yes, that is what sports doc said. :yes:

Will try to make some routines and find places to skate. Too late this year, but practice rink actually asked me to be in Christmas show!!!! I was soooo happy!! .....But would have to go to a month of rehersals (2X week) that interferred wtih work..... Used vacation already this year. Asked them if I could do it next year (save vacation time) and they said ....YES!!!

But in the meantime...maybe play in ISI. At least do tests. Took a look.They are doable. At least put together routines and take tests. First step in getting over nerves.....:yes:

Like you mentioned, it is because we "care" too much. (My problem at Regionals. ) Yup, makes sense. The competitions I did well at were the ones that were small and not "important." :yes:

Yeah, it's a fine line we ride as performers (speaking as a professional musician here). You need to "care" so that there is emotion and feeling in your performance, but you also have to stay detached enough to be able to execute the technique properly. The secret is practice. Technique has to be absolutely secure so that you can express emotion without getting too carried away by it. We have a saying: "Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they don't get it wrong." In music, that means hours in the practice room drilling scales, arpeggios, and exercises as well as practicing the pieces you intend to perform. On ice, that means drilling edges and turns as well as practicing "tricks" and programs. When the technique is solid, the rest can follow, and one isn't as likely to fall victim to stage fright. (I do a pretty good job with this on the concert stage. Center ice, not so much...)

Clarice said:

We have a saying: "Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they don't get it wrong."

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Oh I like saying!!

Yes, will practice routine often (as soon as I make it). Certain coach has her kids do routines back to back every lesson. (Once "real" and once with single jumps etc.) Her skaters usually practice items within the routine framework rather than just going around and doing the item again and agiain like the rest of us. Have heard that her skaters usualy do very, very well in competitions. Will try to adopt this approach. (This way will work on MITF by default since there will be some footwork in program.)

bondgirl said:

Kristin,
Wow!! That was quite a busy year!!! Congratulations on doing all that!! And you say it helped getting the nerves under control??!!....Yes, that is what sports doc said. :yes:

Will try to make some routines and find places to skate. Too late this year, but practice rink actually asked me to be in Christmas show!!!! I was soooo happy!! .....But would have to go to a month of rehersals (2X week) that interferred wtih work..... Used vacation already this year. Asked them if I could do it next year (save vacation time) and they said ....YES!!!

But in the meantime...maybe play in ISI. At least do tests. Took a look.They are doable. At least put together routines and take tests. First step in getting over nerves.....:yes:

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Thanks! It's a good plan you have there. Any performance helps: test, competition, whatever. And you will notice that this ability to manage nerves helps you in everyday life as well. I am not nearly as "shy" about getting up in front of people to say stuff in meetings, talk to a high level Director, or address a group of people at work. I swear everything I ever learned about life came from skating & skating related activities.

These days, I'm not competing/testing since I am not training for skating anymore. But again, my ability to get up there in front of people helps me in my current pursuit: modeling. I was in a runway show last month, the biggest one I have ever done and it was the first thing I was doing for my agency. I drew upon my skating performance knowledge, managed the nerves, and pulled it off quite nicely, helping other new models in the process. This is great knowledge to have. Go for it!