Shen & Zhao: Going for the Olympic dream
- Thread starter gsk8
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- Feb 5, 2004
To be honest i don't pay much attention to the standard skater soundbite of not wanting to win the gold and coming back for the love of it. I didn't believe Michelle when she said it, I don't Pluschenko when he says it and i certainly don't believe Shen and Zhao when they say it. Of course they want the gold!
But if this is all the big plan of the Chinese federation, then they're risking an awful lot. S&Z are at the very top end of the age scale for figure skaters, they're competing in the most dangerous of disciplines and the likelihood of injury, one that will stop them from competing at the best or at all is pretty high. If i was the Chinese federation i'd have been pushing one of the younger couples.
In any event S&Z wouldn't put themselves through this is they didn't want it and i think the missing gold medal is what's keeping them going for it again. This will be what their 4th Olympic games? That in and of itself will be pretty impressive.
I don't want to see them being boosted by the judges at 2010 Olympics in terms of PCS, just like what happened at COC for their LP, because their technical details are noticeably regressing with age. With the soaring PCS for their programs, I think, the other younger rising pairs, who are struggling for more difficult elements all the way through at the risk of their health, can do nothing but heave a deep sigh: What Rules of COP!
But in reality the pairs field is a bit of mess outside of maybe two or three couples at the top, not including S&Z. I have yet to watch their CoC performances but even if they're not performing at the level they were in 2007 they are still better in the PCS than anyone other Robin and Aliona. Personally I think when the Ukranians are on (and i mean specifically him, cos he can be awful at times) and when Murkatova & Trankov are on they are all up there in the PCS. But other than them who else?
Kawaguchi & Smirnov for me are a typical Moskvina couple. By that i mean when Moskvina has magical pairs she really does amazing thnigs. When she doesn't she loads up programmes too difficult for the couples in the hope that they'll pull it off and they end up looking sloppy when they don't. And if they have one more faux "this is ballet on ice" crappy programmes i'll scream!
So to me S&Z having top end OCS doesn't bother me because, other than the Germans I think they likely deserve them.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I thiunk we're coming from the same place and the skaters who skate the best at each competition shoudl win that competition. But the difficulty comes in determining what "the best" was. COP has made clean programmes a thing of the past so you have to weigh up technical errors etc compared to performance which still remains largely subjective. I explained my peersonal thoughts on some of the top couples in pairs right now to explain why i think S&Z likely are still near or at the top of that pack from a PCS perspective, can you explain your thoughts on why they don't deserve the PCS they achieved?
This seems to be at least a litte at odds with teh opening paragraph of your first post to me.
Ant
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- Joined
- Sep 23, 2004
I think it's too early to say that S/Z will be overscored for just one competition. I won't hide that I'm a huge fan of them, and I wasn't expecting for them to skate perfect on their first outing. They know what are the things they have to work on to achieve the perfection they seek. Surely they are back to try and get that OGM, but that doesn't mean they'll get it easily. They are one of the oldest out there, but John Baldwin and Rena Inoue are older than they are (well John and Hongbo are the same age, Rena is older than Xue). If the latter cand go out there and do throw triple axels, I'm sure Shen/Zhao can still do their elements. Aside from some probles on the solo jumps, their most difficult pair elements were still there. But they still have to skate to get the OGM.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
OK
I actually disagree with a lot of your assessments.
I don't know but in the LP S&Z have opted to do a FO death spiral which is hands down the most difficult death sprial. I'll grant you it's not pretty, but they were the first (and only?) pair to ever execute it, and they did this way back in the 90s under 6.0 so i'm not sure COP can be blamed for this!
But what does their past standard matter? The judges shouldn't hold them to a higher standard than the other couples just because they have skated better in the past. The judges marked what they saw.
Have you looked through the protocols? The Zhangs also got mostly +GOE on their elements.
What is your complaint do you think that S&Z did not deserve their win in COC?
Also have you looked through the ISU documents that explain how +GOE is awarded as this might help you understand how the judges (often unanimously) arrived at the GOE.
Well it just sounds to me like you're complaining about skaters based on your personal preference and not looking at the rules that are in place for the scoring to explain it.
Again i'd ask - how would you have placed them at COC if not in first place?
Ant
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- Feb 5, 2004
Yes i'm absolutely certain they did it in the 1998 Olympics in Nagano.
I don't really understand your point then, you claim they weren't marked properly but you admit you don't really understand the scoring system. I think you have your answer there then!
Well then it's fine to say according to your own opinion of figure skating they don't deserve to win (which i don't think you're saying anway), but to claim there is some kind of judging impropriety when you don't actually know the rules they're applying seems strange.
I would hope that the judges judge what they see according to the rules, if they don't or they ignore the rules, then what is the point of having them (the rules or the judges)?
Well if you make random statements about skaters (especially negative comments) then people are going to ask you to substantiate what you say. If you find you can't argue against the statements then maybe the conclusions you've reached are wrong, for example, that they were over scored.
In any event while i like S&Z and sentimentally i like the idea of them winning gold i'd be just as happy with the Germans taking the gold as i truly think they are wonderful skaters who are genuinely unique.
Perhaps it is your dislike of Z&S that is too hard to shake
Ant
Perhaps it is your dislike of Z&S that is too hard to shake
Ant
Sorry, i know your comments were not directed at me, but i to a large extent agree with wonderland.
i love S/Z programs and i was very much looking forward to seeing what they had to offer. But, their LP was a huge disappointment. they skated clean but if you look at the program they only skated to do required elements. 20 seconds at the middle glaring at each other and deliberate posses, where they admire the beauty of each other. They are welcome to do it, after all they are a couple, but the lack of speed or ice coverage is worrying.
Their elements where shaky yet they got high score for them. If not for that pair spin they where on target 205 points +, this is indeed over scoring (i my opinion) . if plushy or any other skater is penalised for lack of transition so should marks of S/Z be penalised for lack of speed and ice coverage.
And the comment by you ant, can very well be interpreted as a comment by a die hard fan of S/Z
i know many will disagree with me, you are welcome to...
I pretty much agree with you. I feel like S/Z's marks at CoC were somewhat "Welcome Back" marks rather than a true representation of their programs. They were great and clearly deserved the win, but they have plenty of things to work on and didn't really need to get near World Record scores.
At the same time, if S/S can get a 72 for a "weirdos in space" program and Z/Z can get monstrous PCS for programs that some consider to be snoozefests, S/Z absolutely deserve big marks, too. It's just kind of funny to me... Back when S/Z regularly competed against B/S and S/P, they were considered weak artistically. Whenever B/S & S/P skated halfway decently, S/Z were overlooked. Nowadays, some fans proclaim S/Z to be brilliant artists who can do no wrong. (Although S/Z have indeed improved in presentation since the B/S & S/P era). It's just a little amusing to me.
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- Dec 28, 2006
I love that Shen and Zhao are back and really hope that they get the Gold Medal they deserve. Yet i don't think it will be handed to them. Aliona and Robin get huge scores even with un-clean programs. thier probelm, is of course doing a clean program, but if they can, I think the gold is thiers.
About the death spiral, I don't like it either, i don't like Aliona's either. Most CoP death spirals, like other CoP positions are ugly. That little Russian girl at Cup of China has a beautiful death spiral. Classic, body all in one curved line, very close to the ice.
About the death spiral, I don't like it either, i don't like Aliona's either. Most CoP death spirals, like other CoP positions are ugly. That little Russian girl at Cup of China has a beautiful death spiral. Classic, body all in one curved line, very close to the ice.
I think the pairs gold will not be handed to anyone. It is ironic that it was the controversy in Salt Lake that mostly centered on pairs (yes, I am aware of the conspiracy link to dance) that is making it so that I think pairs will be one of the more unpredictable events. Look at Paris for the Germans? What a surprise. S/Z will need to bring the goods. I too thought the scores were a tad generous, especially for a first event of the season where their skate looked like they were still scraping away some competitive rus. That said, they definitely threw down the gauntlet and I think there is very evident room for improvement, and not just because they had "never had stupid mistakes like this before" moments.
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- May 21, 2009
Im very sorry for SS, maybe they were at lease 70% sure that the gold was theirs before the announcement of Xue and Hongbo's coming back. I remember in an interview, SS said they were happy to see Xue & Hongbo come back, but it's not SZ's time anymore. I want to ask: is it SS's time now? I doubt it.............
Everyone can understand the feeling, so what they need to do is practice practice practice,,,try their best to deliver a CLEAN program (havent seen their clean programs for decades), they are good pair, but they are not GREAT pair yet. Compared to what Xue and Hongbo have been going through, there are still a lot work and efforts need to be done for SS.
Some people said SS got huge scores even they didnt clean the program, do you know Einstein's theory of relativity? SS might beat ZZ, PT or KS even without a clean program, mind you, they deserved of the last two times champion not because they deliver good performance,,,I think its more for their effort to bring in different kinds of style or (music)...but now they are facing "innovative and stable" Xue & Hongbo,,, I doubt they can beat Xue and Hongbo without 200% efforts.
However, I think SS's innovation ability is almost over, very very disappointed for their new programs, especially LP, the choreography is recycling from last season. I dont know how they can get high score again with this program and unstable technical elements.
Thanks to Xue & Hongbo, Pairs competition finally back to the normal track. No matter what, Xue & Hongbo are the HEROs, some people said their PCS was a bit overrated, I dont really care about the score too much,,,, for me, it's more like a certification for your level, which means the judge put them in the same level with SS, or even slightly higher than SS, which is quite fair in terms of the presentation,connection and interpretation of music, no doubt there is more emotion in Xue & Hongbo's performance.
yea..whatever, no matter whether you are happy with Xue & Hongbo, THEY ARE BACK! still the same Xue & Hongbo in our memory (maybe even improved a bit more). they are the best, no matter what color of medal they got.
and good luck to SS, for them, dont be too greedy, a medal should satisfy enough, they were even not top 5 for the last olympics,,,,, and I hope they can do their best in SC. so they can face Xue & Hongbo in Tokyo....dont want to wait till Feb...
Everyone can understand the feeling, so what they need to do is practice practice practice,,,try their best to deliver a CLEAN program (havent seen their clean programs for decades), they are good pair, but they are not GREAT pair yet. Compared to what Xue and Hongbo have been going through, there are still a lot work and efforts need to be done for SS.
Some people said SS got huge scores even they didnt clean the program, do you know Einstein's theory of relativity? SS might beat ZZ, PT or KS even without a clean program, mind you, they deserved of the last two times champion not because they deliver good performance,,,I think its more for their effort to bring in different kinds of style or (music)...but now they are facing "innovative and stable" Xue & Hongbo,,, I doubt they can beat Xue and Hongbo without 200% efforts.
However, I think SS's innovation ability is almost over, very very disappointed for their new programs, especially LP, the choreography is recycling from last season. I dont know how they can get high score again with this program and unstable technical elements.
Thanks to Xue & Hongbo, Pairs competition finally back to the normal track. No matter what, Xue & Hongbo are the HEROs, some people said their PCS was a bit overrated, I dont really care about the score too much,,,, for me, it's more like a certification for your level, which means the judge put them in the same level with SS, or even slightly higher than SS, which is quite fair in terms of the presentation,connection and interpretation of music, no doubt there is more emotion in Xue & Hongbo's performance.
yea..whatever, no matter whether you are happy with Xue & Hongbo, THEY ARE BACK! still the same Xue & Hongbo in our memory (maybe even improved a bit more). they are the best, no matter what color of medal they got.
and good luck to SS, for them, dont be too greedy, a medal should satisfy enough, they were even not top 5 for the last olympics,,,,, and I hope they can do their best in SC. so they can face Xue & Hongbo in Tokyo....dont want to wait till Feb...
You can tell the objectivity from the subjective PCS that in their LP the mark of SZ's skating skills is not even over 8, compared to the rest four which are around 8.50. That means they are not yet as good as in the past. The Germans can easily beat them at this mark. Note that the PCS are heavily determined by the TES in the particular program, which you can refer to SS's nightmare LP at TEB.
In terms of +GOE's, it is not granted based on how difficult the movements look, but on how EASILY athletes execute them. SZ's lifts are critized for being short in time. The second one in their lp which got a +2 from all the judges was especially good because it had a good ice coverage, from center to the diagnal end; very smooth and clean footwork for Hongbo, and particularly he spinned VERY fast which created the illusion that the lift was short, but it was very difficult to do considering the great coverage.
The Germans have the best skating skills so far but they have problems deliver clean performances. It is not their fault, it is just that their programs are so innovative and difficult which exceed their capabilities. They have won the 2008 championship with a terribly executed lp, and they themselves were surprised in the end that they have won the championship. They had a reason to be proud even though the program was not clean, that they brought so much innovation to pair skatings, just like what SZ did some ten years ago. One example of many, under the 6.0 system where there was no particular requirement about lifts, the hardest lift "Lasso" almost disappeared but SZ kept using this unusual lift although they often had problems with that. They are widely recognized to have brought pair skating, in terms of techniques, to a whole new level.
Now the problems facing the Germans are that they have been using the innovations for three seasons, which make their skatings not innovative anymore, especially their lp, new music old movements. Also consistency. However, for SZ who has been skating for 17 years, (please -2 for the last two seasons), they are still capable of catching up the fashion trends, and their programs are interesting to watch. I like the entry of the first lift, it's massive; I also like the death spiral which is very very hard to do that her toe pick is so close to the ice, which requires a lot of control. The problem facing SZ is that whether they have stamina to produce clean programs, which from COC it did not look like to be a big problem.
I have to add here that some people are annoyed by "their resting" for about 20 seconds in the lp, which I found really funny. How about the beginning of SS's short program this season that they dont start after the music being played for 13 seconds. They just stand still for 13 seconds in short program and nobody seems to mind, right? What a shame to blame SZ for dance movements in their lp after the death spiral for 8 seconds, if you think that was "their resting for 20 seconds".
In terms of +GOE's, it is not granted based on how difficult the movements look, but on how EASILY athletes execute them. SZ's lifts are critized for being short in time. The second one in their lp which got a +2 from all the judges was especially good because it had a good ice coverage, from center to the diagnal end; very smooth and clean footwork for Hongbo, and particularly he spinned VERY fast which created the illusion that the lift was short, but it was very difficult to do considering the great coverage.
The Germans have the best skating skills so far but they have problems deliver clean performances. It is not their fault, it is just that their programs are so innovative and difficult which exceed their capabilities. They have won the 2008 championship with a terribly executed lp, and they themselves were surprised in the end that they have won the championship. They had a reason to be proud even though the program was not clean, that they brought so much innovation to pair skatings, just like what SZ did some ten years ago. One example of many, under the 6.0 system where there was no particular requirement about lifts, the hardest lift "Lasso" almost disappeared but SZ kept using this unusual lift although they often had problems with that. They are widely recognized to have brought pair skating, in terms of techniques, to a whole new level.
Now the problems facing the Germans are that they have been using the innovations for three seasons, which make their skatings not innovative anymore, especially their lp, new music old movements. Also consistency. However, for SZ who has been skating for 17 years, (please -2 for the last two seasons), they are still capable of catching up the fashion trends, and their programs are interesting to watch. I like the entry of the first lift, it's massive; I also like the death spiral which is very very hard to do that her toe pick is so close to the ice, which requires a lot of control. The problem facing SZ is that whether they have stamina to produce clean programs, which from COC it did not look like to be a big problem.
I have to add here that some people are annoyed by "their resting" for about 20 seconds in the lp, which I found really funny. How about the beginning of SS's short program this season that they dont start after the music being played for 13 seconds. They just stand still for 13 seconds in short program and nobody seems to mind, right? What a shame to blame SZ for dance movements in their lp after the death spiral for 8 seconds, if you think that was "their resting for 20 seconds".
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B
bingbing
Guest
Shen and Zhao are really huge. I love them so much. Unlike G/G, who have and enjoy the art temperament of nature, who were born with grace and beauty, S/Z keep improving themselves with diligence and perseverance day by day, year by year, step by step. They overcomed so many deadly difficulties and never gave up their dreams. They are the heroes of heroes forever.
I was so excited to see their performances on COC. Despite several mistakes and a little slower speed than before, in many ways they are even better than they were. The strong emotion they bring to each other as a couple and of course, to the audience, the moving their unchangeable pursuit of dream and the incredible comeback inspire us are just what the figure skating ,even the whole sport needs.
In my eye, such are the performances as the first competition I want——imperfect with some little mistakes but fabulous to the judge and audience. According to what Zhao and their coach, Yao said, they have their own plan to solve the problem of their energies and their speed.
Actually, there are several factors needing to meet with to get the GOE. And that`s why you can see +1,+2,+3.So it`s quite normal to see a movement get it in spite of some factors not perfect. What`s more, don`t you think the PCS for all the skaters this year are a little higher than that you thought before?
I was deeply moved by S/Z since 2006.The sadness they encountered, the happiness they seek for their life……They need the gold medal. It is a dream deeply rooted in their heart for nearly 10 years. They missed too many chances.I really hope they can fulfill their dreams in 2010 because they deserve it.
I was so excited to see their performances on COC. Despite several mistakes and a little slower speed than before, in many ways they are even better than they were. The strong emotion they bring to each other as a couple and of course, to the audience, the moving their unchangeable pursuit of dream and the incredible comeback inspire us are just what the figure skating ,even the whole sport needs.
In my eye, such are the performances as the first competition I want——imperfect with some little mistakes but fabulous to the judge and audience. According to what Zhao and their coach, Yao said, they have their own plan to solve the problem of their energies and their speed.
Actually, there are several factors needing to meet with to get the GOE. And that`s why you can see +1,+2,+3.So it`s quite normal to see a movement get it in spite of some factors not perfect. What`s more, don`t you think the PCS for all the skaters this year are a little higher than that you thought before?
I was deeply moved by S/Z since 2006.The sadness they encountered, the happiness they seek for their life……They need the gold medal. It is a dream deeply rooted in their heart for nearly 10 years. They missed too many chances.I really hope they can fulfill their dreams in 2010 because they deserve it.
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- May 21, 2009
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- May 21, 2009
I think you only saw SZ's disadvantages and SS's advantages........
The weird clowns can get massive scores without a single CLEAN program,,,why can't SZ get full score if they improve all the details???
Thats good to hear you are scared for nothing, then why you ignore SS's still standing for 13 seconds in the SP,,and so critical about the 8 seconds dancing elements in SZ's LP?
BE FAIR AND RESPECT is the things some people need to learn.
Give us more examples as to their innovations and as to how they pushed the pairs skating to a whole new level technically back to 10 years ago.
I can see nothing funny in some people's annoyance about their LP performance at COC. For you, they are a perfect pairs team, the greatest pairs in figure skating history, so they can do nothing wrong on ice no matter how they executed their programs at competitions. Even though they are making no movements on the competitive ice, they can be excused, such "element" can be considered reasonable, and even can be interpreted as something very special and very romantic. Great interpretations from you!
Don't get me wrong.
All I was saying about SS was their innovation, which I think was their success, and which brings pair skating to a new level-- they are leading the fashion style right now. But also their problems are inconsistency and their lack of innovation in their lp this season. I was disappointed with their programs this season was not because I thought SZ was greater, but because I was hoping to see more new stuff from them.
I have never said that SZ was perfect. I have never said they are the greatest pairs ever. I have never said their dance movements were special or romantic. Your words are just harsh and nonsense. I do not know why you have such harsh comments on SZ when SS are still the favorites to win the OGM.
- Joined
- May 21, 2009
Did I talk about S/S's advantages here? I didn't even mention this team.
BTW, so far I have never heard of the so-called "full score" being awarded to any great skaters after COP replaced the old 6.0 system.:scratch:
Yea right,,,,, then you can save your bad words for SS. just leave the best wishes to Xue & Hongbo
give it a bit more time,,,you've never heard doesnt mean it wont happen!
2 or 3 years ago,,,to get over 70 points was not an easy thing,,,,, but now seems like the top 5 pairs all have the ability to break 70 points
:chorus:
You are fighting for your favourite pairs Shen/Zhao either S/S.
It reminds me very much for another treat last year in Ice dance. Who will be the World Champion? Virtue/Moir or Delobel/Schoenfelder. It was a big fight.
And who was the World Champion with a mediocre performance? Domnina/Shabalin.
Please, save your favourites and try to be happy if the best one will win (not necessarily the case).
Anyway I adore both of your favourite teams , with a slight advance to Shen/Zhao, who gave me more teers and joy during their skating.
You are fighting for your favourite pairs Shen/Zhao either S/S.
It reminds me very much for another treat last year in Ice dance. Who will be the World Champion? Virtue/Moir or Delobel/Schoenfelder. It was a big fight.
And who was the World Champion with a mediocre performance? Domnina/Shabalin.
Please, save your favourites and try to be happy if the best one will win (not necessarily the case).
Anyway I adore both of your favourite teams , with a slight advance to Shen/Zhao, who gave me more teers and joy during their skating.
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Sorry, i have disagree with your comments... The comments here are critical of S/Z's LP but i can't understand how they can be labeled Harsh and nonsense. I like wonderland is not happy about the score that S/Z received considering as i said lack of ice coverage and speed(many other have raised the issue)... the elements except for throws and twist were not perfect to dish out such a big score. the comments are not hateful it is just criticism of Judging. if you check comments Plushy's , Mao's, S/S post you can see much stronger criticism. so labeling anyone critical of S/Z harsh and haters etc... are not helpful for a healthy discussion.
