Men's SP 9:00 p.m Nov. 13th EST | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Men's SP 9:00 p.m Nov. 13th EST

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
The skate is over and imo, I would not object to either Evan or Florent winning. I can't believe those judges are concerned about the venue.

Certain scores within the range of 1 point are ties for me. We are looking at extremely different styles here, so it's basically a pick your choice.

For the LP, forget the style differences, and check to see who is the more consistent.

Hmmm, such an objective view feels strangely out of place after reading comments from the others :)

And how odd to hear the ones's complaining about Carroll's comments now are claiming "favoritism" from the judges in favor of Evan. :p

Let's try for some consistency fans - either Carroll is correct and there is shady judging - or he is WRONG - and Evan earned his score tonight.
But that would mean you can't have it both ways and that appears to be unacceptable. What a conundrum ;)
 
Last edited:

katha

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
On second viewing I liked Lysacek's SP even better! It suits him perfectly. :) And his costume is great, too. :biggrin: The design of the arms is unusual but suited for the theme and it being black saves it from overkill IMO. Now his LP costume OTOH...

I also think that he interprets his music well and projects to the audience. And no, not only the American audience. He got big applause in China, too. His skating skills are good, as are the linking movements from element to element IMO. Or at least his transitions don't seem worse to me than those of most of the other top men. So for me his PCS seem totally justified.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
And how odd to hear the ones's complaining about Carroll's comments now are claiming "favoritism" from the judges in favor of Evan. :p

Let's try for some consistency fans - either Carroll is correct and there is shady judging - or he is WRONG - and Evan earned his score tonight.
Well, I suppose that was in reference to my post here and elsewhere on the forum. What a strange interpretation of my comments, and posts written by other people. I did not suggest that Evan Lysacek was overmarked as part of some vast conspiracy to make him appear a superior skater to, say, Daisuke Takahashi. And nobody suggested that he isn't the rightful leader after the SP; in fact, I specifically pointed out that I did not watch the SP, and asked others for their opinion.

An event in the US, with the reigning American world champion against a mostly subpar field... who doesn't expect a bit of a bonus? And with Florent Amodio being an (inconsistent) up and coming skater, I can't imagine anyone expected sky high PCS for him. But considering the content in Lysacek's performance - quadless, with a cheated 3A - that score seems very generous, especially as Evan doesn't have the best technique and isn't known for amazing choreography and musical interpretation. Apparently it's the highest PCS score of the season; I seriously doubt there was no better performance all season on that mark. Evan Lysacek is not the Yu-Na Kim of men's skating.

Established top skaters are often helped on PCS. It's nothing new, though in this case it does appear somewhat excessive. But there is a huge difference between the judges getting overexcited about a skater, which is not really unusual, compared with actually conspiring to keep the scores of certain skaters down, and I should think that would be obvious to anyone.

Janetfan, I realize you have been a skating fan for many years, that you support American skaters, and that by your own admission, you have something of a cold war mentality about it. But if you seriously think the American skaters are the only ones earning their scores fair and square while everyone else is cheating, which is basically what Carroll said, then I don't think there's any point in having a discussion.
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Well, I suppose that was in reference to my post here and elsewhere on the forum. What a strange interpretation of my comments, and posts written by other people. I did not suggest that Evan Lysacek was overmarked as part of some vast conspiracy to make him appear a superior skater to, say, Daisuke Takahashi. And nobody suggested that he isn't the rightful leader after the SP; in fact, I specifically pointed out that I did not watch the SP, and asked others for their opinion.

An event in the US, with the reigning American world champion gainst a mostly subpar field... who doesn't expect a bit of a bonus? And with Florent Amodio being an (inconsistent) up and coming skater, I can't imagine anyone expected sky high PCS for him. But considering the content in Lysacek's performance - quadless, with a cheated 3A - that score seems very generous, especially as Evan doesn't have the best technique and isn't known for amazing choreography and musical interpretation. Apparently it's the highest PCS score of the season; I seriously doubt there was no better performance all season on that mark. Evan Lysacek is not the Yu-Na Kim of men's skating.

Established top skaters are often helped on PCS. It's nothing new, though in this case it does appear somewhat excessive. But there is a huge difference between the judges getting overexcited about a skater, which is not really unusual, compared with actually conspiring to keep the scores of certain skaters down, and I should think that would be obvious to anyone.

Janetfan, I realize you have been a skating fan for many years, that you support American skaters, and that by your own admission, you have something of a cold war mentality about it. But if you seriously think the American skaters are the only ones earning their scores fair and square while everyone else is cheating, which is basically what Carroll said, then I don't think there's any point in having a discussion.

Sorry if you feel that way. My post was not directed to you specifically but to many others who suggested Evan was given marks he did not deserve or earn.

I haven't seen the SP's yet either and my comments were based on what I read on this thread from many posters, not just you.

But my point may sound inconvenient, or even painful to some - but I happen to believe it. There is still way too much favoritism and judging by reputation in skating.

I was happy to see Plushy return and land his incredible jumps. I didn't think any other aspect of his skating at COR was above average, and thought his spins were below average. And that might be generous.

But his pcs were very high. I agree with Carroll and his history in skating seems to offer evidence of crooked judging. To deny it just does not feel realistic at all.

Joe said several months ago that skating has become so "internationalized" that he doesn't root for American skaters - but his favorite skaters. I feel more and more like that too.FYI, I much prefer Tomas to Evan.

Since the majority of comments here suggested that Evan was gifted and shown favoritism I felt it more than appropriate to point out the rather obvious double edged sword such views express. It is a logical conclusion even if it goes against your opinions about Evan and Carroll and ISU judging.

Sorry if my remarks offended you. I enjoy your posts and will continue reading them.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Janetfan, thanks for taking the time to clarify and explain your thoughts.
But my point may sound inconvenient, or even painful to some - but I happen to believe it. There is still way too much favoritism and judging by reputation in skating.

I was happy to see Plushy return and land his incredible jumps. I didn't think any other aspect of his skating at COR was above average, and thought his spins were below average. And that might be generous.
Indeed, esp. the part I bolded. But I think reputation-based judging, while a problem, is not on par with the sort of misconduct Carroll has been alleging. I don't think anyone suggested that the marks in the SP were an example of backroom dealing and the like, just the sort of thing that Plushenko enjoyed at Rostelecom and Takahashi at NHK (this will not endear me to seniorita or Hsuhs... ;)).

I understand that Carroll's experiences in skating may have made him more sensitive to dodgy scoring and politiks, but I sometimes think it has made him too sensitive, and that he overreacts in some cases. Sometimes his skaters really are dinged because there are problems with their skating, not because there's a conspiracy afoot. If he were more selective about levelling such accusations, maybe they'd have a greater impact when he does make them.

Joe said several months ago that skating has become so "internationalized" that he doesn't root for American skaters - but his favorite skaters. I feel more and more like that too. FYI, I much prefer Tomas to Evan.
I think most people here prefers Tomas, but he is soooooo frustrating. If he ever gets it together, his score will be amazing. There is nothing that guy can't do.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I thought Lysacek was way better than Amodio yesterday. True, Amodio was deep into the soulful artsiness of it all. But Lysacek gave a great performance. I thought he deserved his high scores in choreography, interpretation and especially performance/execution.

On the Universal sports coverage Evan was asked wheter he was "surprised" that his triple Axel was downgraded. He said that he was, a little, but that he knew he had left a "grey area" that would be open to judges' interpretation. It's "on the skater" to clean up those grey areas so that you don't put your fate in the hands of the judges.

I thought that was a good (if politically correct and perhaps a tad disingenuous) answer.
 
Last edited:

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Congrats to Evan, Florent and Brandon. Very nice skating from the top three.
I thought that Shawn Sawyer skated well too, I liked his SP very much.

Tomas what can I say other than I hope he moves up in the LP.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I was happy to see Plushy return and land his incredible jumps. I didn't think any other aspect of his skating at COR was above average, and thought his spins were below average. And that might be generous.
oh dear god with plush spins, do you have to mention it in every thread in Gs??
You confuse eye pleasing with getting your levels at spins. Not good spins but he did what is required to have 4 level and 3, i dont remember where he had what, he didnt get any positive GOE for them, did he?Did anyone claim there were beautiful?Does CoR requires to be beautiful? When Plush ever had more than average spins to surprise you now? But average skater in everything else?Right..

What did they say, was Tomas ill??He looked like.
I didnt get the firebird choreo, but I maybe confusing choreo with style here and I didnt enjoy Evan at all. But he has been so consistent so kudos to him, I admire his sportsmanship!:clap:
And sorry B :yes: but I dont think Plush and Takahashi were the only ones overmarked in their sp this season;)
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
oh dear god with plush spins, do you have to mention it in every thread in Gs??

And sorry B :yes: but I dont think Plush and Takahashi were the only ones overmarked in their sp this season;)

I do not mention Plushy spins in every thread!!!!!

When I mention how "slow" his skating looks, naturally I post that at the mighty "Caroline Zhang" thread :p :laugh: :laugh:

I agree with you about Plush and Takahashi and could add Joubert, and Miki to such a list. And others.......:yes:

Probably Evan too - I just haven't seen his SP yet.

But that was my point - that it seems ridiculous for some to selectively rant about Evan being overmarked when "reputation" is still the staus quo for ISU judging.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
^^ I really enjoy reading your posts. You make a lot of sense and your humor just cracks me up. :)
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
No but the only place you dont refer about Plushenko' flaws is the Testing Area!

I think reputation marks comments are in threads of every grand prix event so far and not only in Skate America. So nobody did it selectively here, specifically for Evan. Carol said there are conspiracies in judging also for Weir, or just Evan?

It is better to say what Joe says and get over with it!;)
to be honest, I must admit I have deep schodnfreud(sp) for Plushenko. I would not object to see Florent beat him.
And yet I laughed with this:biggrin: Cause do you know there is a famous abbreviation in another forum that sums up this ?;)
ABOP (All but o' plushenko):laugh:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
No but the only place you dont refer about Plushenko' flaws is the Testing Area!

:

OK, if it will make you happy I will post about Plushy at the "Testing Area."
But then you will owe me a favor ;)

And let' s move on from Plushy since this is the SA thread and he is not competing here.

But it is too bad Plush was chicken to accept the invitation to SA ;) :laugh: :laugh:

It would have been nice to see such a "battle of flapping arms" :p :biggrin:
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
I thought Lysacek was way better than Amodio yesterday. True, Amodio was deep into the soulful artsiness of it all. But Lysacek gave a great performance. I thought he deserved his high scores in choreography, interpretation and especially performance/execution.

On the Universal sports coverage Evan was asked wheter he was "surprised" that his triple Axel was downgraded. He said that he was, a little, but that he knew he had left a "grey area" that would be open to judges' interpretation. It's "on the skater" to clean up those grey areas so that you don't put your fate in the hands of the judges.

I thought that was a good (if politically correct and perhaps a tad disingenuous) answer.

Evan axel even looked underotated in real time; He kills me with this; Miki Ando for example always admits to her underotations but Evan it is either the camera angle or the grey area; I wish he would man up about this and his flip(lip).Is it some kind of mind game; If i dont confess the tech panel will overlook it; I was almost becoming a fan of his but really;come on:cool: My favorite comment is "to clean up your grey areas so that you don't put your fate in the hand of the judges" Is he talking about levels or jumps?
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
how is it not "manning up" it IS a grey area... all of a sudden their dinging him for it... it's always been wonky and he knows it as the entire world knows it... I doubt in the next four months or so he'll get a different entry into the axel (aka a correct one) so he might as well shrug it off... he knows when he throws the 3A in it's going to get hit, there's really nothing he can do at this point and stay consistent with the jump.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
And let' s move on from Plushy since this is the SA thread and he is not competing here.
yes that was my point before.

Oh, Tomas condition looks worse in daylight, he looks pale in sp and he is coughing, i hope he is better today..

His coach said he is sick http://twitter.com/LynnRutherford

Cant wait to see him skate well and I m also looking forward to amodio's cirque du soleil program again, i love it:love:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Back to Evan as headless burned chicken (Friebird?), at least some of his music actually portrays the evil king Kastchei. I think I heard F. Carroll tell Evan, "This is a really good character for you." Maybe it was the villain he meant? Maybe he's not even trying to be a bird (a feather here or there notwithstanding). It's really not a very avian performance.

Anyway, I will never ever be a fan of this guy, but I had to admit he skated extremely well. I'd be very happy if the charismatic Florent could pull off a win, though.

What was with all the black gloves last night?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What I like about Lysacek is that he always gives it his all.

He is not the most talented athlete in the game and he does not have natural grace. But he squeezes every ounce of effort and showmanship out of himself every time out. His performances just keep building and hold my attention throughout. Other competitors often start to fade after the halfway mark. I find myself lookin at my watch at the three minute mark -- gee, it seems like he has been out there a long time.

Now if Evan would just wear costumes with a little fuller cut, so he didn't look like he was six feet tall and weighed 97 pounds... :cool:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Now if Evan would just wear costumes with a little fuller cut, so he didn't look like he was six feet tall and weighed 97 pounds... :cool:
If he did that I might be able to be a fan! But he has invested his whole identity in this "Man in Black" thing that makes him look like a scarecrow. :mad:

I agree with everything you say, and so I respect him without being able to love his skating. I'm working on it... at least now I can watch him without yelling. I guess for me it still comes down to whether Johnny is in the competition... sorry!
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I must have been a zombie yesterday but I just realized cutie Macypura is coached my Kwan's sister?:party2:
Ha, now i got the love;)
 
Top