Ladies Free Program 19:00 pm Eastern Time Saturday, November 21 | Page 26 | Golden Skate

Ladies Free Program 19:00 pm Eastern Time Saturday, November 21

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
That was what people were arguing in ladies gymnastics at the olympics 2 years ago....13 year old girls from China pretended to be 16 and then won everything because they were 4 foot tall waifs who could do just about anything

That's an interesting point, too. If 13 year-old 4-foot-tall waifs are the best gynmnasts in the world, or the best figure skaters, why not let them compete for the gold medals?
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
And poor Yu Na will just retire to an island in the Pacific Ocean and weep. :rofl:

I forgot to put in that I think that they would be scored around the same as Yu-na.. Maybe a little lead for Kim but not necessarily a HUGE one.

Originally Posted by silverlake22
That was what people were arguing in ladies gymnastics at the olympics 2 years ago....13 year old girls from China pretended to be 16 and then won everything because they were 4 foot tall waifs who could do just about anything

Nobody who pays attention to Chinese gymnastics thought that the Chinese girls were actually 12/13. Even the girl who looked like she was missing her tooth, wasn't 13 because there are tapes of the girl as early as 2002 out there as her being a hopeful for the 2008 team. You can't tell something like that from a six/seven year old. A nine year old though you can get a better idea. Most of the Chinese girls were likely 14/15. And this actually makes sense because next year, they all seemed to be struggling with this thing called puberty. The Chinese normally go really two years early.. They actually did have a 12 year old they could have sent, so they thought they were comprising. :lol:

But even now they have apparently gotten the criticism and there was one girl whom it was puzzling to see didn't make their world team. And there's talk that its because of age (consistency too but mainly age). I mean its hard to know for sure how old those kids are though. But Deng Linlin being 12 was really unlikely given the tapes that exist of her. Kexin, Yang Yilin, and Jiang being that young is equally ridiculous. Especially if you see pictures of them now (and the tapes of Jiang from pretty early too) Kexin especially does know look like she could be 16.

Its similar to the N. Korean girl in 1992. She probably WAS underage, but probably only by a year. That's because there are tapes of this girl competiting for years before hand. She may have been 10/11 at her first worlds but she wasn't 10/11 by 1992.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I can't speak for gymnastics. But 80-pound, 4-foot-tall sprites aren't the best skaters. They're merely the best jumpers. As long as skating is done to music, they'll never be the best skaters. They don't have the finesse to do smooth transitions or musical interpretation. In fact, if their skills become the ones most valued by the scoring system, skating will have to be dumbed down to fit them--no overly sophisticated dresses, no really intense music. Example: I often go back to Tara's winning OGM program--modest dress, upbeat music, program entirely suitable for her age--and compare it with another program from a few years earlier, done by a 24-year-old, with (as I recall) no jumps: Gordeyeva's first solo program, to the Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth Symphony. Those of you who watched skating in those days: which program gave you gooseflesh as you saw it? Which do you remember to this day? Yes, skating is a sport. But I'm sorry, I'd rather watch a complete skater like Czisny (when she can jump), Arakawa, YuNa, or Kwan rather than whoever the current junior is with a quad-triple. I suspect I'm not alone in this.

Skating where the ladies are 80-pound pre-teens may actually decline in popularity. I remember reading an interview with Kurt Thomas, the American gymnastics champ in the 1980s. He was asked whether he'd ever dated a gymnast, and he said laughingly, how could he--they were all children. In the same vein, those of you who know guys who enjoy watching skating because Lepisto or Korpi are eye candy...do you think those guys will still watch skating when all the "ladies" are children?
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Thanks for your comments. I have had a similar discussion with the poster "I Love To SKate" several times. You know what she made me finaly realize?
That I have been watching too much of the Ladies events this season and not enough of the other disciplines.

She was right and I really enjoyed the Men's event at SC, I plan to start watching more Pairs and Dance again too because the little bit I have watched this season has been good.

I think "I Love To Skate" has not watched much Ladies this season but after what she saw last night i think she might know where I have been coming from.

Thanks for the shout out Janetfan! ;) I am glad you have been watching the other disciplines. The Ladies long was pretty much a bust, I agree. However, the other medalists in the disciplines were all pretty fantastic! So one bad event in a competition isn't that bad.

ETA: Joannie has been a big disappointment both times I have seen her skate this season. I am waiting for her to do better coz I admire her skating

In China she had a bad short and a fairly good long. Here she had a fantastic short and a bad long. Hopefully at the GPF she puts it together :thumbsup:
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I can't speak for gymnastics. But 80-pound, 4-foot-tall sprites aren't the best skaters. They're merely the best jumpers. As long as skating is done to music, they'll never be the best skaters. They don't have the finesse to do smooth transitions or musical interpretation. In fact, if their skills become the ones most valued by the scoring system, skating will have to be dumbed down to fit them--no overly sophisticated dresses, no really intense music. Example: I often go back to Tara's winning OGM program--modest dress, upbeat music, program entirely suitable for her age--and compare it with another program from a few years earlier, done by a 24-year-old, with (as I recall) no jumps: Gordeyeva's first solo program, to the Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth Symphony. Those of you who watched skating in those days: which program gave you gooseflesh as you saw it? Which do you remember to this day? Yes, skating is a sport. But I'm sorry, I'd rather watch a complete skater like Czisny (when she can jump), Arakawa, YuNa, or Kwan rather than whoever the current junior is with a quad-triple. I suspect I'm not alone in this.

Skating where the ladies are 80-pound pre-teens may actually decline in popularity. I remember reading an interview with Kurt Thomas, the American gymnastics champ in the 1980s. He was asked whether he'd ever dated a gymnast, and he said laughingly, how could he--they were all children. In the same vein, those of you who know guys who enjoy watching skating because Lepisto or Korpi are eye candy...do you think those guys will still watch skating when all the "ladies" are children?

First of all, I say ridiculous. Now that the sport is paying attention to things like skating skills, transitions, and underrotations. It will be VERY difficult for a just jumping bean to win.

I don't think it would have killed the sport at all to let Asada and Kim skate at the Olympics last year. I don't think they would have beaten the skate that Arakawa put done, but they would have made the competition certainly more interesting. And people wouldn't have been asking how Sasha medaled with that skate.

And as for gymnastics, the sport was better off with the old rules.. For example Shannon Miller wouldn't have been allowed to compete in Barcelona under the old rules. She'd have been a year too young. Boginsky wouldn't have been at 1988 worlds, she'd have been a year too young. Nastia Liukin was a gorgeous gymnast at 15. She was better at 19, but she was gorgeous at 15. But gymnastics is a different sport. Where gymnasts are more likely to be artistic if they were trained in things like dance at a young age, and had coaches who stressed it.. Which is why the Soviets normally turned out gorgeous gymnasts who were yes young.
 

cosmos

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
I always think baseball is boring. Why is MLB si popular? Because it is a competition, long and fierce competition.

IMO, one of the reasons skating lost popularity in US is that its competetion was not fierce enough. You canot attract people to skating by just pretty skaters and beautiful skating. I think people were just tired of skating.

I believe CoP is making the skating competition more interesting and fierce. It needs improvement though.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Really? I must be ridiculously naive then. I read somewhere that after every Winter Olympics, there tends to be a spike in figure skating enrollment amongst youngsters, but that didn't happened post SLC. I think the fact that there was open cheating really did hurt the perception, along with the fact that the victims were Canadians (if the victims were French or Finnish, would they have cared so much?)

SLC hurt skating in Canada and USA and the fact that the cheating finaly came out in the open and at the Olympics made a big difference.

The scandal was a major blow that figure skating has yet to recover from.
The IOC was absolutely furious about the SLC scandal and were the one's who forced the change.

I always look to TV contracts and right now they are at pre 2002 levels as far as skating is concerned. It is not on ESPN anymore and that in itself is a major statment. ESPN, the new cathedral of American sport no longer recognizes figure skating as a sport.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
That's an interesting point, too. If 13 year-old 4-foot-tall waifs are the best gynmnasts in the world, or the best figure skaters, why not let them compete for the gold medals?

Part of me agrees with this. And I also agree with Olympia that 14 year old don't necessary make the best jumpers. I don't think the two points negate each other. Take Tara Lipinski. Let's give her some credit. Whatever her faults may have been she had an ice presence and overall quality that some the top U.S. ladies today will never have even though they are younger than her. If she had just been a jumping bean she would not have won Nagano.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Thanks for the shout out Janetfan! ;) I am glad you have been watching the other disciplines. The Ladies long was pretty much a bust, I agree. However, the other medalists in the disciplines were all pretty fantastic! So one bad event in a competition isn't that bad.



In China she had a bad short and a fairly good long. Here she had a fantastic short and a bad long. Hopefully at the GPF she puts it together :thumbsup:

Hopefully in Vancouver she puts it all together - yes :)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
...80-pound, 4-foot-tall sprites aren't the best skaters. They're merely the best jumpers. As long as skating is done to music, they'll never be the best skaters.

Then what's the problem? If they are not the best skaters, then they will not win any prizes against the ladies who are the best skaters. That's why we have skating contests, to see who is the best.

ImaginaryPogue said:
...along with the fact that the victims were Canadians (if the victims were French or Finnish, would they have cared so much?)

Indeed! Whose ox is being gored?

When Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze were placed above Sale and Pelletiere the Canadians cried foul. When the ISU intervened and gave out two gold medals, the Russians got mad and blamed the North American media for pressuring the IOC.

The rest of the world? *yawn*

When Linda Fratianne (left) came in second to Anett Potzsch in 1980 the Americans cried Communist plot. When Sonia Henie beat Herma Szabo before a 5-man panel with three Norwegian judges, the Germans were up in arms.

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be...:)
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
But it wasn't Kwan so much as it was the massive publicity generated by The Whack, right? I mean, look at gymnastics...the American women continue to dominate, and yet you really only hear about it every 4 years. There's something different about ice skating in that regard.

Popularity was just returning to what it was before then, but 2002, the Cop, and then lack of an American star hastened that decline, it seems.

I'm not happy with some of the judging at these GP events. If something like this happens at the Games I do hope that all h**l will break loose and TPTB will be FORCED to do something about it- put up or shut up. They won't get away with changing the system yet again.

Thank you. figure skating took on disproportionate popularity after the whack heard round the the world. Before that, figure skating was a sport the general population paid attention to every four years, just like gymnastics, swimming, track, etc. Michelle Kwan actually helped keep up the disproportionate interest. She's just one of those athletes who transcends her sport (which, considering she did that without an Olympic gold, says it all about her.)
But I do think figure skating is suffering from not having an American female star. I'm not saying an American star would bring the sport back the glory days of the "whack" (okay 'glory' not the right word here but you know what I mean). But the U.S. had a Michelle Kwan or even a Sasha there is just no arguing that it would help.
None of the Americans in my office have a clue who any skaters are these days, including two who actually SKATED in their youth. I managed to get one interested enough to watch Skate America with me but I had to catch her up on EVERYTHING. She didn't even know who Kim Yuna was. But she did know who Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen were ...
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
I always look to TV contracts and right now they are at pre 2002 levels as far as skating is concerned. It is not on ESPN anymore and that in itself is a major statment. ESPN, the new cathedral of American sport no longer recognizes figure skating as a sport.

I don't think this is solid idea to base things off of though. Hockey doesn't have a contract with ESPN either.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I watched the NBC broadcast today with a couple of very casual skating fans.
By the time the men were done they asked me to quit explaining some of the new rules because they did not understand my explanations and said they missed the judges' scores being shown after each skater.

They thought Laura was very cute and lively and liked her alot. They did not care as much for Alissa but said they liked her dress better than Laura's. Could have been than "panty thing" Spun just mentioned. ;)

They thought Mirai was the best and thought Joannie made so many mistakes they couldn't believe she was the winner.

My guests are around my age and they remember Scott very well and enjoyed his commentary. (I did not make that up :laugh:)
From their comments and general reaction I don't get the feeling skating is on the right path. Not as far as having much appeal to casual fans from the USA.

They said they will watch some skating on the Olympics but said it is not the same since Michelle has retired.



This is basically what I said in my previous post but much better explained ... I get the feeling some of my friends and co-workers don't even realize that Nancy Kerrigan has retired.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Thank you. figure skating took on disproportionate popularity after the whack heard round the the world. Before that, figure skating was a sport the general population paid attention to every four years, just like gymnastics, swimming, track, etc. Michelle Kwan actually helped keep up the disproportionate interest. She's just one of those athletes who transcends her sport (which, considering she did that without an Olympic gold, says it all about her.)
But I do think figure skating is suffering from not having an American female star. I'm not saying an American star would bring the sport back the glory days of the "whack" (okay 'glory' not the right word here but you know what I mean). But the U.S. had a Michelle Kwan or even a Sasha there is just no arguing that it would help.
None of the Americans in my office have a clue who any skaters are these days, including two who actually SKATED in their youth. I managed to get one interested enough to watch Skate America with me but I had to catch her up on EVERYTHING. She didn't even know who Kim Yuna was. But she did know who Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen were ...

Looking back to the 80's might be interesting. There was not a USA Ice princess from that decade who made much of an impact. Linda almost - but we know what happened with her.

It is interesting to note that skating did very well in the 80's . It was because of the American men, Scott and Brian. Both were the major skating stories and stars of their respective Olympics back in '84 and '88.

The men's LP in both instances had very good ratings and both of these guys went on to have TV specials and very successful Pro skating careers. They both remain fairly well known in the USA today.

I am not saying I disagree that a leading Lady does not help but in reality the success of Scott and Brian pretty much disproves this theory which comes up in every post about skating popularity in the USA.

In addition, a Pairs team from the late 70's and early 80's, Randy and Tai were very popular , appeared as guests on TV shows, and if not for an unfortunate injury withdrawal at Lake Placid in 1980 they would have been even more popular. No other US Pairs team has ever approached their popularity.

So skating did flourish in the US for a decade without an Ice Princess of the staure of Peggy, Janet, Dorothy, Kristi, etc.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Then what's the problem? If they are not the best skaters, then they will not win any prizes against the ladies who are the best skaters. That's why we have skating contests, to see who is the best.



Indeed! Whose ox is being gored?

When Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze were placed above Sale and Pelletiere the Canadians cried foul. When the ISU intervened and gave out two gold medals, the Russians got mad and blamed the North American media for pressuring the IOC.

The rest of the world? *yawn*

When Linda Fratianne (left) came in second to Anett Potzsch in 1980 the Americans cried Communist plot. When Sonia Henie beat Herma Szabo before a 5-man panel with three Norwegian judges, the Germans were up in arms.

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be...:)


That's what I'm saying! And they DON'T win. Look at last year's nationals. Clearly, there was preference for a skater who had all-round quality and ice presence to the jumping beans who were rather lifeless. Let everyone compete!! It makes no sense not to have the best skaters in the world compete at the Olympics just because they are younger. The younger skaters who win are those who show maturity. I mentioned Tara earlier. But let's not even go that far. Michelle Kwan was only 15 (16?) when she won her first world gold medal. And no one can say Kwan was merely a jumping bean.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I suppose it's possible that skating went through a fluky period from 1994 to about 2004, give or take a few years in either direction, and that it's now back to normal in the U.S. I still remember the days when the only thing you ever saw on TV was two hours for the entire Nationals, two hours for the Worlds, and bits of Olympic skating (interrupted by lots of speed skating, skiing, and bobsled). So I guess I can live with sinking back into obscurity. One problem with American sports (well, it's not really a problem, except to skating fans) is that we have so many sports, including auto racing and golf and those awful wrestling variants involving tattoos and public yowling. So skating gets lost in the shuffle. Fair enough: now that there's a site like this, and YouTube, I have enough skating to tide me over. I can always adopt the skaters from Canada or Japan if things get really dire.

But I still don't think I could get quite as absorbed in skating if all the ladies' champs were eighty-pound preteen wunderkinds.

Quote from Layfan:
Michelle Kwan actually helped keep up the disproportionate interest. She's just one of those athletes who transcends her sport (which, considering she did that without an Olympic gold, says it all about her.)

You could be right, Layfan. Interestingly, in both Olympics, she lost to an American skater--and she still retained greater fame and popularity than the gold medal winner.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I don't think this is solid idea to base things off of though. Hockey doesn't have a contract with ESPN either.

Believe it or not - but hockey has never been successful in the USA.on TV. It has struggled for decades trying to get a good TV deal but has never been a mainstream sport here in the way that baseball, football and basketball are.

I believe that skating actually had a bigger TV contract than hockey did here in the states up until the SLC scandal. I could be wrong about that ......
 
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i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Believe it or not - but hockey has never been successful in the USA.on TV. It has struggled for decades and has never been a mainstream sport here in the way that baseball, football and basketball are.

Oh I definietly know that hockey has struggled in the States. I was just pointing out that because there isn't a contract doesn't mean that ESPN doesn't think it's a sport. The network would still consider hockey a sport and figure skating a sport.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Believe it or not - but hockey has never been successful in the USA.on TV. It has struggled for decades trying to get a good TV deal but has never been a mainstream sport here in the way that baseball, football and basketball are.

I believe that skating actually had a bigger TV contract than hockey did here in the states up until the SLC scandal. I could be wrong about that ......

I think that's right. But now, skating and hockey are in the same boat. I believe both have revenue-sharing contracts with NBC-TV (although hockey does have a separate cable agreement with Versus- not sure how much that's worth).
 
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