Figure Skating Popularity is Rebounding

Kunstrijdster said:

There are soccer referees in North America?

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Yes, of course we have a few.

They are more or less on par with your Euro skating judges.

janetfan said:

Did you read about SLC?

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Going back to the original article and interview with William Thompon, there are two points at which I disagree with Mr. Thompson.

First, I do not think that the judging scandal at Salt Lake City is the primary cause of the drop in popularity of figure skating that we have seen from the mid 1990s to the present. There were scandalous figure skating judging results long before I was born. There will be scandalous figure skating judging results long after I am dead. I do not see any reason why we should pretend to be shocked -- shocked! -- that there could be a figure skating judging scandal in 2002.

As for the reaction of the general public, to the extent that they gave it much of a thought one way or another, before Salt Lake City they thoight that figure skating was a sport dominated by politics and backroom deals. And they still think so.

The second point at which I disagree with Mr. Thompson is his believe that things are getting better under the new judgijg system and that the public is coming around to this belief, too. In my opinion, neither of these claims is true.

Scoring systems don't cheat. People cheat.

And this is the second time you have used the same argument - that any fixing/cheating is only related to a single event and by the judges on it's specific panel.

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I think you are confusing "second" with "zeroth."

Why did Cinquanta and other very high ranking IOC officials promise to eliminate "something that you claim did not exist." ?????????

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Does the "you" in this sentence refer to me? I guess I need to read over my many posts on this topic and try to discover where I said anything remotely suggesting this.

Your argument would be much more convincing if you put ten question marks after this quote instead of only nine. With 10, that might make it seem that your quote is actually quoting something that I said.

janetfan said:

Perhaps we just have totally different opinions about this.

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? No, I think we have the same opinion about this, which is why I am so puzzled about your responses.

Maybe a little historical perspective will help.

Gilbert Fuchs (Austria) was the big rival of Ulrich Salchow (Norway). For most of their careers they refused to skate against each other because as soon as they saw the make-up of the judging panel they knew who would win. Salchow did not attend the1906 world championship in Vienna because the judging panel was dominated by German/Austrian judges. Fuchs did not compete in the 1908 Olympics, even though it was in London, because he knew that the judging panel was dominated by Salchowistas.

(As an interesting aside, at the 1901 world championships in Stockholm, there were four Norwegian judges, one German, and one judge from Great Britain. Salchow won on a tie-breaker, but he was supported by only two of the four Norwegian jufges, plus the British judge. So you never know.)

In 1927 the ladies championship was also in Stockholm, and it was Sonia Henie against five-time world champion Herma Szabo. The judging panel comprised three Norwegians and two German/Austrians. The panel split three to two along "party lines." Szabo retired and Henie went on to win none more world championships.

The results of this contest were so outrageous that the ISU passed a rule syaing that no two judges could be from the same country.

There is nothing new under the sun. Here we have the ISU (under President Ulrich Salchow) instituting a change in the rules to "prevent cheating."

In 1976 the entire Soviet judging cadre was summarily banned from judging any ISU competition for one year, because of blatant bias in favor of Russian skaters.

Here is a good (if somewhat one-sided) article about this.

[Hmm. I don;t seem to be able to post a link directly to the page, but if you Google "soviet figure skating judges banned 1980" it is the first reference that comes up.]

My point is that biased judging, political deals, etc., have plagued figure skating since the beginning. The quotes by Cinquanta and the IOC about cleaning up the mess after Salt Lake City were nothing new.

Mathman said:

The second point at which I disagree with Mr. Thompson is his believe that things are getting better under the new judgijg system and that the public is coming around to this belief, too. In my opinion, neither of these claims is true.

Scoring systems don't cheat. People cheat.

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I don't know if things are getting better or worse regarding corruption between the 6.0 system and the CoP system. It's hard for me to make a judgment, because a) I wasn't alive for most of Figure Skating's history, and b) it would be hard to quantify and measure, in any case.

In the 6.0 era, it seems that many judgments coincided with the intuitive notions of who deserved Gold (along with some controversies)--and SLC was the most recent and publicized case where intuition and judgment clashed so strongly as to reveal the political issues behind the scores. However, the phrase "tip of the iceberg" describes the fact that we don't know how far the political persuasion went.

I do believe CoP is flawed and still gives a lot of weight to subjective matters Not only that, but in its current form it could--and probably will--yield results where even if scoring practices are within acceptable parameters, the judgment of placements will not only be controversial, but intuitively "wrong". I hate to use this example, but this is a fact: a female skater who landed 6 clean triples at the most recent Skate America beat someone who landed 9 (correct me if I'm incorrect). There are many beautiful qualities in the winning skater, but it is still a jolt to me that those qualities can add up to such a difference in technical accounting.

It doesn't matter that it's the human condition for judges to want to favour their own nations' skaters (or their personal selves). I think it is more reasonable to look at these issues from a systems point of view.

The 6.0 scoring system was very flawed and obscured.

The CoP scoring system is less obscured, but imbalanced, and remains somewhat flawed (although I would contend it is less flawed, as far as allowing for human error/bias.) The disagreeable judgments are more a product of systematic error.

Having said that, I believe CoP is salvageable, if those systematic errors were decreased. When that's the case, then people can be people (something we can't change), and then we can get closer to a fairer/objective way of judging.

You can only blame people so much, and it's better to focus on matters that can be realistically and practically addressed.

Mathman said:

? No, I think we have the same opinion about this, which is why I am so puzzled about your responses.

Maybe a little historical perspective will help.

In 1976 the entire Soviet judging cadre was summarily banned from judging any ISU competition for one year, because of blatant bias in favor of Russian skaters.

Here is a good (if somewhat one-sided) article about this.

[Hmm. I don;t seem to be able to post a link directly to the page, but if you Google "soviet figure skating judges banned 1980" it is the first reference that comes up.]

My point is that biased judging, political deals, etc., have plagued figure skating since the beginning. The quotes by Cinquanta and the IOC about cleaning up the mess after Salt Lake City were nothing new.

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Thanks for your reply. I was not so aware about the interesting facts from the beginning part of your post - but did become more familiar with them as it went forward in time.

If we agree about certain things - I don't think we agree about the current makeup of the judging panels.
It would seem to fit into the current geographic scheme of things to use an equal number of judges from Europe, Asia, and North America on every panel for each discipline.. Or maybe add an Australian judge so USA or Canada would not get to use two judges.

At times it feels wrong to watch skating as much to see if the judging is fair - than for the skating itself.

Now I want to see if I can watch a couple of the SP's from this afternoon.
And maybe starting the new thread for Alissa brought her luck. We will see tomorrow :yes:

janetfan said:

It would seem to fit into the current geographic scheme of things to use an equal number of judges from Europe, Asia, and North America on every panel for each discipline.

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Except that there are only 3 ISU members in North America, so if the "equal number of judges" from each of those regions was 3, then the North American countries would always each have a judge on the panel. Whereas a European country would only get a judge on the panel once out of every 10 or more competitions.

And how many qualified ice dance judges are there from Asian countries, or from Mexico for that matter?

Or maybe add an Australian judge so USA or Canada would not get to use two judges.

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Would it perhaps make more sense to divide the panels by language groups rather than geographical location? E.g., the British judges are more likely to have cultural tastes more in common with the Australians, Americans, and Canadians than with most other Europeans.

gkelly said:

Except that there are only 3 ISU members in North America, so if the "equal number of judges" from each of those regions was 3, then the North American countries would always each have a judge on the panel. Whereas a European country would only get a judge on the panel once out of every 10 or more competitions.

And how many qualified ice dance judges are there from Asian countries, or from Mexico for that matter?



Would it perhaps make more sense to divide the panels by language groups rather than geographical location? E.g., the British judges are more likely to have cultural tastes more in common with the Australians, Americans, and Canadians than with most other Europeans.

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Thanks for raising some interesting points.
I am not sure about the logistics and did not attempt to work it out.

I just feel that for a couple of North American and Asian skaters competing against a couple of Euro skaters the judging panel should have even the slightest degree of balance.

It is quite possible every mark cast in the men's SP and LP will be from one region. Yet the skaters will be from three distictive regions.

Even if all votes are well intended do you really think that some degree of nationalism/regionalism won't factor into it?

You recently pointed out to me that judges are human. I believe you.

janetfan said:

If we agree about certain things - I don't think we agree about the current makeup of the judging panels.

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Yes, this is the place where we disagree. I do not think that adding more judges from North America (say, Mexico and Puerto Rico – or even Australia) to the judging mix and booting Lithuania and Switzerland would do anything to insure more honest judging.

By the way, here are a couple of studies form the 6.0 era (1998 and 1999) that analyzed national bias. In 1998 the worst offenders, in terms of scoring their countrymen higher than the average of the international panel, were

Denmark
China
Japan
Canada

The country with the best record, by this measure, was Russia. Maybe Russia had so many deals going on that they didn’t have to prop up their own skaters.:

In 1999 Estonia joined Canada as the worst and Greece was the best. (I’m not sure how much opportunity Greece had to cheat in favor of Greek skaters, but anyway…)

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/natbias.htm (scroll down to the bottom)

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/natbias2.htm

At times it feels wrong to watch skating as much to see if the judging is fair - than for the skating itself.

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I agree.

Mathman said:

I agree.

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I should credit the last thought - about "watching as much for the judging as the skating" to a comment made at the Sasha thread by Kwanford wife.

I still haven't seen any of the Ladies SP's from today because I am too busy arguing about judging.

I was not surprised by the results other than to hear Akiko did not do so well.
I was happy to hear Joannie and Alissa skated well. :yes:

Mathman said:

The country with the best record, by this measure, was Russia. Maybe Russia had so many deals going on that they didn’t have to prop up their own skaters.:

In 1999 Estonia joined Canada as the worst and Greece was the best. (I’m not sure how much opportunity Greece had to cheat in favor of Greek skaters, but anyway…)

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/natbias.htm (scroll down to the bottom)

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/natbias2.htm

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Take that, haters!

This statistic is seriously cool, I haven't seen it before. Thanks for it!

Medusa said:

Take that, haters!

This statistic is seriously cool, I haven't seen it before. Thanks for it!

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It is a cool stat and I am glad mm posted it.
But "haters" - well if you imply that some hate cheaters you would probably be right about that. I know I certainly do.!

I will "seriously" rethink who I "hate" for 1998 and 1999.

Medusa said:

This statistic is seriously cool, I haven't seen it before. Thanks for it!

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If you go to this site

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/

click on "archive,: then scroll down to "Features and Editorials" there are all kinds of cool statistical stuff. This is George Rossano's site. Dr. Rossano is a statistician, figure skating writer, photographer, data operator and judge, and all-round good guy. In real life he is literally a "rocket scientist."

Mathman said:

By the way, here are a couple of studies form the 6.0 era (1998 and 1999) that analyzed national bias. In 1998 the worst offenders, in terms of scoring their countrymen higher than the average of the international panel, were

Denmark
China
Japan
Canada

The country with the best record, by this measure, was Russia. Maybe Russia had so many deals going on that they didn’t have to prop up their own skaters.:

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I would replace the word "bias" with "discrepancy". To add to your "possible interpretation", maybe Russia did prop up their own skaters, but they had "assistance" so they didn't have as much evident discrepancy from the "average of the "international panel".

I'm definitely not a Russia hater. Just saying.

prettykeys said:

...maybe Russia did prop up their own skaters, but they had "assistance" so they didn't have as much evident discrepancy from the "average of the "international panel"

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Yes, that is an interesting slant. If you have allies then you don't have to stick your neck out..

The 6.0 scoring system was very flawed and obscured.

The CoP scoring system is less obscured, but imbalanced, and remains somewhat flawed (although I would contend it is less flawed, as far as allowing for human error/bias.) The disagreeable judgments are more a product of systematic error.

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I think that the CoP has not been successful in making judging less obscure.

True, under 6.0 it was never clear exactly why one skater got a 5.7 and won and another got a 5.5 and lost. Still, most of the time the placements came out right, and sometimes it was a close contest that we concede could have gone either way. And once in a while, as in every sport, our favorite got robbed and we scream bloody murder.

This has not really changed. Just check out the ladies short program thread in the Skate Canada folder. Most people are satified with the SP placements (except for Suzuki and Lepisto). And yes, we know "why" the placements came out as they did. Rochette is ahead of Czisny because she got more points.

Is this an explanation? Given that Rochette deserves be ahead, should she be that far in the lead? Let's check the detailed scoring. Oh, here it is. Rochette got 8.00 in choreography and Alissa only 6.55. But why? Let's rush to the ISU rules and the bullets for this compenent. Oh yes, maintaining the theme and character of the music -- now we know.

Well, at least the CoP is more transparent on the technical side. Yes, here it is. So-and-so's points add up only to 49 because she got a downgrade on her triple Loop. Why did she get a downgrade? Was this the correct call? Was it borderline, so left up to the tech specialists judgement? I didn't see any underrotation. (Well, I certainly did, let's go to you tube and settle it.)

When all is said and done, and I see the favored skater so far out in front that the LP is just for show -- I really do not feel any the wiser than I did back when one judge gave a 5.7 and another a 5.5.

I totally agree with the obscurity regarding the margins, especially when it comes to the PCS. Plus, it was discussed elsewhere how this busy scoring format might make it harder for judges to...judge. Maybe you are right, perhaps the obscurity in CoP only adds up to questionably huge margins that render the LP less significant and so bias in scoring can have an overall worse effect than in 6.0...:think:

Mathman said:

Your argument would be much more convincing if you put ten question marks after this quote instead of only nine. With 10, that might make it seem that your quote is actually quoting something that I said.

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oh, snap!

jennylovskt said:

What?! You are worrying poor Patrick and poor Evan? I am thinking that they might be the one who will be over marked. Let's start a debate on who will be over marked.

Seriously, I think if Patrick or Evan gets gold, it is not normal. So stop crying on something that hasn't happened yet. May quad win!

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Yes! Long live the quad !!!!

Oops, off topic, sorry...

antmanb said:

Yeah and also watch the Eurovision song contest and tell me how unified and friendly Europe is when scoring

Ant

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OMG I've laughed so hard it hurts...

janetfan said:

Thanks - nice articles. But it is also quite clear that Canadians are in no mood for another cheating scandal either.

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Huh? There will be a big cheating scandal but this time it will favor the Canadians, so most will support it.

James R said:

Huh? There will be a big cheating scandal but this time it will favor the Canadians, so most will support it.

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Sorry, but such accusation doesn't have any ground and base at all.