Age Limits

i love to skate · Nov 23, 2009

There has been some discussion on this in one of the GP threads so I wanted to get some specific discussion going on this topic.

I am actually a little bit appalled that some people are in favour of getting rid of the age limits. Placing a child in the spotlight of the Olympics or World Championships is a horrible idea. Children should not be exposed to that kind of pressure as a child and down the road it could have serious and dangerous implications. It is a very slippery slope if age limits are thrown away. Should we have 10 or 11 year olds competing in the senior division? How young is too young?

There are many stories of senior level athletes burning out after entering into high pressure situations before they are ready. Many develop patterns of destructive behaviour such as; eating disorders, drug use, alcohol abuse, and staying in abusive relationships. Kristie Philips, Nadia Comaneci, Tracey Austin, Jennifer Capriati, and Tracey Wainman are all examples.

I suggest everyone who thinks age limits should be thrown away should educate themselves on the story of Tracey Wainman and how her life was almost destroyed by the pressure and getting "too much too soon"

http://www.torontolife.com/features/ice-storm/?pageno=1

bekalc · Nov 23, 2009

I don't think that anybody is saying that 10 and 11 year olds should be at the Olympics. Some just think that maybe the age rule should be a little relaxed.

It was ridiculous that Kim and Asada couldn't compete at the Olympics.. They were turning 16 that year, but were three months to young. Michelle Kwan had been a world champion already at their age. (Not to mention Tara) And it doesn't seem like they ended up as stunted human beings. The girls are doing the same difficult jumps etc. Why not let the best compete against the best?

I think they should make a rule that anyone who turns 13 that year (no more by July) your the same grade you can compete can compete in Juniors. And anyone who medals at Junior Worlds or at the JGPF can compete at the Senior level: The Next Year.

Plus there can be a narrow window of opportunity. These sports are tough sometimes you can get an athlete who is ready when they are younger but things don't pan out when they are older. If Asada doesn't medal at the Olympics, IT will be a shame because she could have medaled in 2006. People say they don't feel sorry for Yu-na but she could have medaled at the Olympics too.

IF a skater doesn't have a Junior medal than they can make the age limit 16 by that year. I think that my way works because it ensures that the young skater has already shown that they can actually handle "some" level of international competition before thrusting them on Seniors.

Mafke · Nov 23, 2009

AFAICT you don't have the same kind of break between jr and sr talent in the other disciplines, even pairs.

Maybe two separate ladies competitions is the answer? One for the young hotshots and one for the more mature artistes.

Mathman · Nov 23, 2009

Thank you for the article about Tracey Wainman.

However, while reading it I couldn't help feeling that the problem was not that Tracey was allowed to compete at the senior level in competition with older skaters. It was, rather, that they ("they" being her mother, David Dore, and the sports media) pushed her into the spotlight and made such a big whoop about it.

She shouldn't have been sent to the 1980 Olympics, not because she was too young, but because she did not win the Canadian championship. Twenty-one year old Heather Kemkaran did. Shame on the Canadian Figure Skating Federation for shoving aside the skater that earned the right to represent Canada at the Olympic Games..

Pushing kids into the spotlight before they are emotionally ready to cope with it -- bad. Allowing them to compete in sports at whatever their level of skill qualifies them for -- not necessarily so bad, it seems to me.

bekalc · Nov 23, 2009

Mafke said:
AFAICT you don't have the same kind of break between jr and sr talent in the other disciplines, even pairs.

Maybe two separate ladies competitions is the answer? One for the young hotshots and one for the more mature artistes.

Why? Age doesn't always ensure someone will be more artistic than someone else.. Yu-na at 15 was more artistic than 19 year old Leonova will ever likely be. I mean I have seen artistry improve with age of course. But being young doesn't mean you can't be artistic. Tell that to Sasha Cohen who was gorgeous at 15. Or tell it to Murakami who is an absolutely lovely skater-even though she's 15.

Yu-na Kim is a better jumper Murakami-by quite a lot. Even though Murakami is 15. Being younger than Irina didn't make Sasha Cohen a better jumper than Irina. Irina was doing amazing 3/3s at a much older age.

Its ridiculous to say the older skaters can't be competitive with jumping beans. I mean yes some of the ladies are struggling but that could be just Olympic pressure too. But they are all capable of scoring better than they currently are.

Imagine if Yu-na Kim, Rochette, Ando, Kostner retire. Mirai never fixes her jumping issues. Mao still struggles with her jumps. Murakami struggles with consistency. And so we get Lepisto, Leonova, and Wagner all fighting for the Senior medals. Wagner isn't exactly attempting lots of triples right now if you look at her protocols. Lepisto-doesn't either and will maybe attempt one 3lutz a competition with doubles. And then we get Leonova who has all the triples but is sloppy with hardly great basics.

Now offer in Junior we got Polina Shelepen with probably better basics than Leonova doing 7 triple jumps with a 3/3 and a double axel/3toe) Elizaveta with her triple/triples, yes lovely skating. And Adelina with her lovely spins and skating and nice spring on her jumps (once again all the triples)

Please tell me again why Leonova, Wagner, and Lepisto would be more interesting to watch.

gkelly · Nov 23, 2009

Mathman said:
She shouldn't have been sent to the 1980 Olympics, not because she was too young, but because she did not win the Canadian championship. Twenty-one year old Heather Kemkaran did. Shame on the Canadian Figure Skating Federation for shoving aside the skater that earned the right to represent Canada at the Olympic Games.

Kemkaran went to the 1980 Olympics. Wainman went to Worlds that year in her place.

As I understand it, the part of the reasoning was that the age rules were going to be changing and by sending Wainman to Worlds before the rules changed she would be grandfathered in; otherwise she would not have been eligible for 1981 Worlds.

That might have been part of the reasoning behind the US sending 13-year-old Tara Lipinski to 1996 Worlds before the current age limits came in for the 1997 season. Or the reasoning may have had more to do with not believing that Nicole Bobek, who withdrew from 96 Nationals, would be ready to compete successfully at Worlds.

Other examples of young skaters replacing older skaters at Worlds in an Olympic year include 14-year-old Elaine Zayak in place of Sandy Lenz in 1980 and 14-year-old Midori Ito in place of Masako Kato in 1984. I don't think beating the age limits was the reasoning in those cases. More likely either the older skaters were not able or not interested to compete at Worlds and were content to end their careers at the Olympics, or the US and Japanese federations decided to share the wealth by giving the older skaters the Olympic reward and sending the younger skater to Worlds to gain experience for the future.

mskater93 · Nov 23, 2009

bekalc said:
Wagner isn't exactly attempting lots of triples right now if you look at her protocols. Lepisto-doesn't either and will maybe attempt one 3lutz a competition with doubles. And then we get Leonova who has all the triples but is sloppy with hardly great basics.

I have issue with your comment about Wagner - she attempts each triple flavor (excepting Axel) at least 1X in her program but gets a ! or e on her Lutz. Tell me how that's not attempting a lot of triples right now? Just because there's no 3/3...

i love to skate · Nov 23, 2009

Mathman said:
Pushing kids into the spotlight before they are emotionally ready to cope with it -- bad. Allowing them to compete in sports at whatever their level of skill qualifies them for -- not necessarily so bad, it seems to me.

How do you distinguish the two though? Just because a child has the skill set doesn't mean that they are capable of handling the pressure, spotlight, and attention. Most of the time, they won't be able to handle it and have injuries or burn out and their lives take a dramatically different path. 16 is a very appropriate age for senior level competitions, IMO.

bekalc · Nov 23, 2009

mskater93 said:
I have issue with your comment about Wagner - she attempts each triple flavor (excepting Axel) at least 1X in her program but gets a ! or e on her Lutz. Tell me how that's not attempting a lot of triples right now? Just because there's no 3/3...

Ashley didn't attempt a 3toe at Russia or at NHK.

Mafke · Nov 23, 2009

bekalc said:
Why? Age doesn't always ensure someone will be more artistic than someone else.. .

Okay, let's try two different ladies competitions, segregated by an agregate of weight/age/height (on a two out of three basis).

Or let's not.

If anything, CoP as currently practiced would speak against lowering age limits since so many young skaters don't fully rotate their jumps (or have horrible edge issues) Maybe in 2006 Asada would have gotten the benefit of a doubt but no young skater now will........

Final note: I don't watch ladies anymore because I can't trust my eyes the way I used to under 6.0. Too many jumps that look absolutely fine in real time are downgraded. This means I perceive too large a difference between performance and results or of just blind chance into the results.

It's not quite as extreme in the bad old days of Janet Lynn and my avatar but it's the same kind of problem. If a viewer who can tell the jumps apart and could often tell underrotated jumps in the past feels alienated and confused, then what will the Sally Housecoats and Joe Poptarts who tune in for the olympics make of current competition? And no, making the audience more 'aware' of the rules doesn't help, I'm aware of them and it doesn't help at all.

Mathman · Nov 23, 2009

I think that having the opportunity to compete at a high level at a young age can cut both ways. Yes, some children are abused by adults who should have their best interest at heart. Parents are first in line in terms of responsibilty, but also coaches, skating officials, publicists and the like.

Who is to blame in the case of Tracey Wainman? ISU rules? Or...

As far as Dore was concerned, the name of the game was medals. He had no qualms about showing off Wainman: “We’re going to stage manage her entrance,” he told The Globe and Mail. “She will arrive later than the rest of the team and we have arranged for the West German press to meet her at the airport… She will leave the judges talking.”

On the other hand, look at the girls who lost out on the experience of a lifetime. At the 2008 United States senior championships, the winner was Mirai Nagasu, At 14 she was not eligible to go to Worlds. She may never have another chance.

Silver went to Rachael Flatt. She was also too young to go to Worlds. Rachael, however, did get another chance in 2009 (and maybe another in 2010), so it worked out OK for her.

Caroline Zhang was, perhaps, the favorite, based on her accomplishments as a junior. She finished fourth. This was probably the best skating of her career.

The U.S. world team was Ashley Wagner, third at Nationals, Bebe Liang, fifth at nationals, and Kimmie Meissner, seventh. (Alissa Czsiny finished 9th and did not make the team.) Meissner, Liang, and Wagner all had poor results at Worlds, with the result that the U.S. lost its third spot for the next year's worlds. (This was a double whammy for Caroline Zhang, because she would have been the third team member in 2009.)

Would a team of Nagasu, Flatt and Zhang have brought home the bacon? There is no way to tell. The ISU age rules said we couldn't send either our number one or our number two skater. Personally, i think they could have handled the pressure just fine, and would have had the time of their young lives.

mylastduchess · Nov 23, 2009

I'm not exactly sure but isn't the age limit universal in all Olympic Sport? IF it is then FS should follow the guidelines like every other olympic sport

i love to skate · Nov 23, 2009

Mathman said:
Would a team of Nagasu, Flatt and Zhang have brought home the bacon? There is no way to tell. The ISU age rules said we couldn't send either our number one or our number two skater. Personally, i think they could have handled the pressure just fine, and would have had the time of their young lives.

We don't know how they would have placed and we also don't know if the pressure would have made them crumble. Caroline seems to be crumbling now at the age of 16 and another poster stated that Mirai has said in the past that she thinks skating is a burden but continues to do it because she isn't good at anything else. :no:This is a very concerning statement and the two seem to get down on themselves and react negatively so I think it is a good thing they weren't sent to Worlds.

Skate Canada (formly CFSA) made an extremely poor error in judgement in sending Wainman so young. Skate Canada didn't send Phaneuf when she won Nationals at 15 so they have learned from the past. The young athletes may look all shiny and happy but inside there is a major struggle going on when they have the spotlight on them. Who would have guessed the difficulties that Comaneci, Moceanu, or Capriati faced? They looked like the perfect little girls with perfect little lives - and that is so far from their reality.

Have you ever read Little Girls in Pretty Boxes? I think every fan of figure skating should read that book. Skaters shouldn't be allowed to perform in seniors until they are sixteen for the same reasoning hockey players aren't allowed into the NHL until the are eighteen. They simply aren't ready to handle what comes with the job.

Mathman · Nov 23, 2009

mylastduchess said:
I'm not exactly sure but isn't the age limit universal in all Olympic Sport? IF it is then FS should follow the guidelines like every other olympic sport

No, the governing body for each sport sets its own rules. Here are some examples.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006022712821

I think fencing might have the lowest age limit -- 13.

bigsisjiejie · Nov 23, 2009

From a purely selfish spectator point of view, I support age limit of 16. Wouldn't even be sad to see it raised to 18. At a senior competition, I want to see ladies/women out there, not girls. If I want to see girls, I'll watch Jr's or the local/ regional competitions. I want to see complete skating packages not just jumping beans, with enough maturity to properly interpret music rather than use it as skating "wallpaper."

Just my 2 cents.

mskater93 · Nov 24, 2009

bekalc said:
Ashley didn't attempt a 3toe at Russia or at NHK.

And that is DEFINITELY not due to lack of one in her case as her 3T as a solo jump is VERY nice. I believe she's working on 3T as the back of the opening 3F combo but it's just not consistent enough yet.

antmanb · Nov 24, 2009

I don't have a problem with the age limits, but i also don't think it should necessarily be 16. For every example of how bad it was for one person there are a number of examples of how it wasn't a problem for others.

The discussions that most people have had actually seem to show that the younger competitors have held it together in pressure situations more than their older counterparts.

I don't know what the answer is, or what the best age limit should be, but whatever number they arrive at should apply completely accross the board - all ISU competitions should have the same age limit. It is totally ridiculous that younger competitors can compete in the GP, make the GPF, WIN the GPF and then be ruled too young to compete at an ISU championships and Olympics. It makes no sense and has no justification.

Fix the limit at the same age for all competitions internationally. Once a skater skates in a senior international they can't go back to Junior. If the rules were uniform like this, then the national federations could apply similar age limits to their competitions so that you don't have senior podium of pre-teens who are not elligible to skate in senior competitions anywhere except at home?

Ant

janetfan · Nov 24, 2009

antmanb said:
I don't have a problem with the age limits, but i also don't think it should necessarily be 16. For every example of how bad it was for one person there are a number of examples of how it wasn't a problem for others.

The discussions that most people have had actually seem to show that the younger competitors have held it together in pressure situations more than their older counterparts.

I don't know what the answer is, or what the best age limit should be, but whatever number they arrive at should apply completely accross the board - all ISU competitions should have the same age limit. It is totally ridiculous that younger competitors can compete in the GP, make the GPF, WIN the GPF and then be ruled too young to compete at an ISU championships and Olympics. It makes no sense and has no justification.

Fix the limit at the same age for all competitions internationally. Once a skater skates in a senior international they can't go back to Junior. If the rules were uniform like this, then the national federations could apply similar age limits to their competitions so that you don't have senior podium of pre-teens who are not elligible to skate in senior competitions anywhere except at home?

Ant

Thanks for that analysis ant. It seems to make alot of sense to me. In the long run I think it could also lead to younger skaters spending an extra year or two developing their overall skating and presentation skills.

Some of the youngsters are fun but typically are nothing more than jumping beans. I think more good, well rounded skaters would be a real plus for figure skating and particularly for the Ladies competitions.

dannyascii · Nov 25, 2009

antmanb said:
I don't have a problem with the age limits, but i also don't think it should necessarily be 16. For every example of how bad it was for one person there are a number of examples of how it wasn't a problem for others.

The discussions that most people have had actually seem to show that the younger competitors have held it together in pressure situations more than their older counterparts.

I don't know what the answer is, or what the best age limit should be, but whatever number they arrive at should apply completely accross the board - all ISU competitions should have the same age limit. It is totally ridiculous that younger competitors can compete in the GP, make the GPF, WIN the GPF and then be ruled too young to compete at an ISU championships and Olympics. It makes no sense and has no justification.

Fix the limit at the same age for all competitions internationally.

Exactly. If you have a 15 year old going to the GPF then they obviously have the technique and the maturity to handle senior competition.
I personally think that lowering the age to 14 or 15 would make sense. I definitely understand the opposing opinion, but frankly, 14 or 15 is when some skaters peak and I think it's unfair to make them wait another four years when their bodies have completely changed, their life situations are completely different, etc. Maybe some restrictions on practice schedules or something of that nature can be put into place to protect children, but prohibiting them all together does not seem the way to go. And most of the child examples posted so far were the result of overbearing parents, not simply the child's age.
I just don't feel it fair that the best competitors are being prohibited from competing. Mao Asada had it; now she's lost it. And it's a shame that when she was at her best, she wasn't allowed to show it.

Medusa · Nov 25, 2009

dannyascii said:
Exactly. If you have a 15 year old going to the GPF then they obviously have the technique and the maturity to handle senior competition.
I personally think that lowering the age to 14 or 15 would make sense. I definitely understand the opposing opinion, but frankly, 14 or 15 is when some skaters peak and I think it's unfair to make them wait another four years when their bodies have completely changed, their life situations are completely different, etc.

Well, Caroline Zhang peaked at 13, in a few years we might say that Liza and Adelina peaked at 12.

So now we say, let's make the age limit 14. I can assure you, there will be girls in top competitive shape at the age of 11 to 13 then - and people will whine about them not being able to take part in competitions.

In pair skating there are tricks that can basically only be performed with girls before puberty - the Quad Twist, e.g. Gordeeva could do that when she was still a teen and had the body of a 10-year-old. There are some videos floating around on youtube where little girls perform this move with grown men. The Quad Twist in Gymnastics is a similar move, you see lots of prepubescent girls trying it.

You know, during the Industrial Revolution and after it, there was lots of work that could only be performed by small children, e.g. in the textile industry. These days there is also lots of child labour in poorer countries, where the children do jobs because their small bodies are predestined for that work.

Wouldn't it be great if we could add figure skating to that list of professions that can only be performed by children's bodies? What an accomplishment for the sport of figure skating! :bow:

Age Limits

i love to skate

bekalc

Mafke

Mathman

bekalc

gkelly

mskater93

i love to skate

bekalc

Mafke

Mathman

mylastduchess

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janetfan

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